So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Site keeps going down?

And cant wait for the skillset


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RiotAmes

QA Analyst

03-10-2013
32 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
Can you tell us what it was you guys like about Karma and what you wanted to change?
This has been covered elsewhere a bit, so I'll be brief:

Karma is a respected leader figure. Politicians aren't necessarily inspiring in a game, but leaders can be. Karma is about balance and control, and players experience that through intelligent use of Mantra. Fans can be a cool weapon, but you need to commit to them for it to be successful. With Karma, we would have to change a lot about what she does and how she does it for the fans to feel 'right'. ( look at Anji Moto or other video game fan-wielders for some examples ) That wasn't the right choice for this particular champion, even though we understand the cost of player attachment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brennivin View Post
I loved her old VO, and I like that it will be on the Traditional skin (Even though the jokes/taunts are... impractical. Hue.).

Thanks for all of your hard work on my favorite champ (assuming you DID help). :')
We've retained lines that make sense. As for the 'help' bit- we have a joke that production/team leaders wave their hands in various ways to get things done. So if hand waving counts as helping, you're welcome! Ultimately it's the team itself that does all the heavy lifting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Tog View Post
I love that you guys are giving out Traditional Karma for free to her existing players, but why make it Legacy after two weeks? Why not just keep it in the store for anyone who discovers her after that period? It looks like a good skin, it would help pad out her selection, and players would have more choice.
How we made the skin available was quite the debate for a while. I lent some of my Goth Annie experience to this one - respect the right people in the right way, but also make sure that everyone who wants it has access to it for a while. After that, retire/make it legacy to add a little 'specialness' to the skin. Make sure that we communicate that it isn't exclusive from the start.

The skin was never made for monetary reasons, so there's not much incentive in that regard to leave it in the store at all times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask Tyrant Swain View Post
Ames, if you're still here:
Why wasn't Traditional Karma used as the default skin?
The Traditional Karma skin came a little later in the project. IronStylus wasn't her original concept artist. We had already decided that the new base was what we wanted of her. When it came time to work on skins, Relaunch team thought it'd be cool to offer the 'vintage'(as everyone is calling it) look to players, so IronStylus took a shot at it and we liked it. We debated swapping the two a few times and decided not to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoresuMakashi View Post
Wait so is there any chance that her old lore will be canon, with this as an actual lore event that chronicles her change over time?
Unless something changes, her old lore will remain canon. She may have a new bio, but it doesn't replace the old one- it's a new chapter. We want to be able to tell stories about our champions. Replacing existing stories is not done lightly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by VexTheHex View Post
Nice post RiotAmes, I'm starting to recognize your posts as you seem to really think about the players and want to communicate with us. Either that or it's that Jayce avatar.
Thanks, I appreciate that. I played a few MMOs before this and one thing that stood out to me in the past was that when someone at those companies had a good relationship with players, it felt amazing. I only hope to be as good as they (and others at Riot) are.

Quote:
Anyway, as the original voice having the joke issue has already being brought up, I do ponder if you could hint if any other relaunches are planned?
I can't speak to schedule - it changes a lot depending on what else is going on and I don't want to disappoint anyone. You guys have enough info already. :P I will say that I'm looking forward to the rest of the year- we have cool stuff in the works.


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ZeroKuno

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Besides the Karma rework which like some people may care about. What has been happening with the servers for the past month including your webserver? It's awful.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Ask yourself how you think someone with fans fights. Is it a shield? A tether? Is the most powerful manifestation of this person who fights with fans the ability to improve their other abilities?
It is a tool the person choose to use. Is it absolutely necessary? No. Does it make no sense at all? Nope.
Here I want to note:
Ezreal - the gauntlet
Fiddlesticks - the scythe (or whatever it is)
Karthus - staff
Janna - staff
LeBlanc - staff
Lulu - staff
Lux - staff
Mordekaiser - staff-functioning mace
Nami - staff
Nasus - staff
Soraka - staff
Veigar - staff
Viktor - staff
Willump - Nunu
Everyone of those could potentially get rid of what I mentioned and go Syndra-style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
We didn't feel that was the case. The fans were a distraction from what she was supposed to be, then. (a note: yes, we could have spent time forcing the fans to work, but that didn't work out the first time) Instead, we looked at her Inner Flame and Mantra - this spoke of an inner strength, uncompromising in the face of adversity. That strength was also a source of power for her. This made sense, this wasn't 'in the way'. Digging deeper, we decided that it was this strength and her devotion to her country that we felt made her powerful and memorable. More than a politician who happened to fight, but a legend in her own right.
I agree - she could use her fans nonetheless. I can see Karma does not require her fans in any way, but I don't agree that they were in the way of what she's supposed to be. I just like to think she kept these fans in memory of her parents/past and decided to implement them in her fighting style - because why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
That leads to the Karma you see now. Her fans aren't permanently removed from her story, but she no longer needs to channel her strength through them. She has sufficient self-control to do that on her own now. She is still the voice of her people. And while we aren't against retcons, Karma's story is a progression, not a replacement.
Like I pointed out, who said that was what the fans had to be for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
I've read every page of this thread. You aren't unheard- good and bad. Getting Karma ready for release is taking a lot of the team's time. There's been comments that we went into this uninformed or didn't ask people who played Karma what they thought - this isn't the case. While we didn't put it to a forum poll (and likely never will), many Karma players were asked for their thoughts about old Karma and new Karma alike. We've had a lot of good feedback. We went into this knowing that not everyone would be happy with the changes, but are confident that we've made the right decision.
Yes, it was quite clear you were confident. That's what people disagreeing with some of the changes are worried about. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
The other running set of comments were that we haven't talked enough about why we made the changes we have. To that end, I'm going to stick around for a bit and talk Karma. It's my night off, but anyone who reads my posts knows that I care enough about the community to put the time in.
I thank you very much for your effort to respond to us, I really do.
At this point I can understand your reasoning, and for me my objections come down to my preferation of her still implementing the fans and your preferation of her not to, whereas before riot's reasoning didn't make much sense at all for me. I am just disheartened you went this way.
If you have the time, I'd appreciate if you take a look at my whole train of thought, maybe that also makes it a bit more clear what I was trying to say.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

I do have one question. I get it you wanted to move away from the fans it wasnt working. But why change her looks so extreemly? And it is rather extreem in my eyes. And getting the dragons in there would of been awesome if it had worked but like some other ppl said u cant rly tell its dragons. I looks like a green ying yang symbol with some markings on it. Will this be changed to make it look atleast some what better so that the dragons then atleast are visible? Or is it cause of the pictures itself they arent rly visible?


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MrTharne

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrocalypse View Post
It is a tool the person choose to use. Is it absolutely necessary? No. Does it make no sense at all? Nope.
Here I want to note:
Ezreal - the gauntlet
Veigar - staff
I don't agree with those two, Ez'gauntlet is what's holding the amulet he found and allows him to model his magic.

And Veigar is based on Final Fantasy's Black Mage (especially Vivi Orunitia from FFIX), it ain't Vivi without a staff.

But yeah the rest is correct (apart from Willump and Nunu, i don't see one of them without the other x) )


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Just a hint? Hm. Like we've said - we don't want players thinking she fights with her fans for various reasons. I do understand the attachment, though
I don't understand why she can't carry a fan for her traditional skin (and ONLY traditional skin), but it's not involved in combat, in any way.

People are very attached to the fans, and while it has nothing to do with her combat system or style (even for current Karma), that doesn't matter; it's what people have grown accustomed to and like, so it's what they kinda expect.

It would be like if Twisted Fate had his cards taken away in favor of PSI---people will be upset because visually, it's core to that character (in this case it's logical and part of his actual combat, I realize); people have grown attached to it and associate that with the character on an archetype basis.

Also, how else is "guess what's about to hit the fan?" going to make sense? On that note, could you look into this joke? It's broken on Karma, at the moment, and almost never plays (I assume this problem will exist on the traditional one, too).


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Shingo

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Afrocalypse covered most of my thoughts in regards to Karma's fans especially the sudden requirement of necessity

Instead I will approach their replacement

I honestly don't see how the jade crest is an improvement over her fans. her fans were like an extension of her powers that allowed her spirit to surge through them.

The crest whilst a symbol of patriotism is a much more external, detached power source / charm. It is safe to assume it illuminates during mantra and perhaps even rotates crazily but I think that gives of more confusing messages than the fans ever did

Assuming Karma's mantra hasn't become her passive we know what three of her abilities already look like

I don't get how her channeling her power through her fans would have negatively effected the abilities previewed. The energy projectile looks pretty standard and her soul bond is as clumsy as ever and I don't see what the crest has added other than some extra readability and pretty glow in the dark effects.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
This has been covered elsewhere a bit, so I'll be brief:

Karma is a respected leader figure. Politicians aren't necessarily inspiring in a game, but leaders can be. Karma is about balance and control, and players experience that through intelligent use of Mantra. Fans can be a cool weapon, but you need to commit to them for it to be successful. With Karma, we would have to change a lot about what she does and how she does it for the fans to feel 'right'. ( look at Anji Moto or other video game fan-wielders for some examples ) That wasn't the right choice for this particular champion, even though we understand the cost of player attachment.
Er sorry, I should have been more clear. I know what you liked about her character, I was wondering what about her play patterns you liked and which ones you wanted to improve on.


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RiotAmes

QA Analyst

03-10-2013
33 of 43 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
Er sorry, I should have been more clear. I know what you liked about her character, I was wondering what about her play patterns you liked and which ones you wanted to improve on.
Ahh, I get you. Kit stuff you'll have to wait- this announcement was a little impromptu, so we're not revealing everything just yet.