Riot, Can we Please Get rid of the CS Count in TAB Menu...

First Riot Post
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WhyCantMyNameFi

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's a lot of issues with revealing the enemy gold count - mostly because of the things you've mentioned in your post - It provides a more accurate - and therefore more telling analysis of how many dragon's they've achieved - which camps they have poached and what their relative power level or how much gold they haven't spent.

While I agree with you in that it's more accurate overall - it leads to revealing a *lot* more information about your opponents than is particularly healthy, especially since a lot of early laning phase depends upon relative factors like gold spent / unspent or if they're sacrificing jungle objectives for ganks, etc. (For example, someone does Dragon in Fog, you notice your lane opponent's gold jump up - you know where their jungler is at that moment.)

While there is probably a better system to display "minion control" that skirts around the 'hidden information' problem - CS is a metric that works fairly well in lane in determining who has the momentum in that lane matchup - and works fairly well in the jungle to compare which jungler is more farm-centric compared to gank-centric.

It's not really intended to be a pure objective measure of which team is dominating throughout the entirety of the game. I agree, though, that there could be micro-optimizations that we could do to accomadate for the disparity between the worth of individual minions (for example, if we made Siege Minions worth 2 CS score, or large jungle monsters worth 2 CS score).

But in short, CS is intended to be simply one of many metrics that informs you about how well someone is doing - not the absolute end-all of his financial status.
can we at least see our teammates gold?
and the tiny wraiths not count toward cs count


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Enhander

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elchulus View Post
That's dumb.

Then it becomes instantaneously obvious when Baron or Dragon is done.
The gold of enemies only updates itself when the enemy becomes visible. For dragon this may make it a little more obvious, for baron it doesn't make a difference. As soon as you see the enemy, the baron buff is enough of an indicator.


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Xeviance

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's a lot of issues with revealing the enemy gold count - mostly because of the things you've mentioned in your post - It provides a more accurate - and therefore more telling analysis of how many dragon's they've achieved - which camps they have poached and what their relative power level or how much gold they haven't spent.

While I agree with you in that it's more accurate overall - it leads to revealing a *lot* more information about your opponents than is particularly healthy, especially since a lot of early laning phase depends upon relative factors like gold spent / unspent or if they're sacrificing jungle objectives for ganks, etc. (For example, someone does Dragon in Fog, you notice your lane opponent's gold jump up - you know where their jungler is at that moment.)

While there is probably a better system to display "minion control" that skirts around the 'hidden information' problem - CS is a metric that works fairly well in lane in determining who has the momentum in that lane matchup - and works fairly well in the jungle to compare which jungler is more farm-centric compared to gank-centric.

It's not really intended to be a pure objective measure of which team is dominating throughout the entirety of the game. I agree, though, that there could be micro-optimizations that we could do to accomadate for the disparity between the worth of individual minions (for example, if we made Siege Minions worth 2 CS score, or large jungle monsters worth 2 CS score).

But in short, CS is intended to be simply one of many metrics that informs you about how well someone is doing - not the absolute end-all of his financial status.
What about if the gold information for your only your team is revealed? I can see how seeing the enemy's amount of gold can be too revealing. However, my problem is with my teammates not realizing that CS count isn't everything...


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-09-2013
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
can we at least see our teammates gold?
Hm.. I'll ask around about it - No immediate red flags pop up when I think about it - though I'm probably missing something obvious like 'What about spectator ghosting' and the like.


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Twistana

Senior Member

03-09-2013

CS tells you nothing....

Regularly I will have the lowest CS in game and have allies saying things like "derp gg our mid has no CS" ....then after game see that mid was up 3k gold even with crappy CS....

Yeah... CS is a useless metric, give us something worthwhile ... give us gold count but put it on a 2 minutes slower rate ...so we can ALWAYS see what our gold is .... but if we wanna see enemy gold it would be 2 minutes behind.... just like you did with spectators.


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YoungWeedCaillou

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's a lot of issues with revealing the enemy gold count - mostly because of the things you've mentioned in your post - It provides a more accurate - and therefore more telling analysis of how many dragon's they've achieved - which camps they have poached and what their relative power level or how much gold they haven't spent.

While I agree with you in that it's more accurate overall - it leads to revealing a *lot* more information about your opponents than is particularly healthy, especially since a lot of early laning phase depends upon relative factors like gold spent / unspent or if they're sacrificing jungle objectives for ganks, etc. (For example, someone does Dragon in Fog, you notice your lane opponent's gold jump up - you know where their jungler is at that moment.)

While there is probably a better system to display "minion control" that skirts around the 'hidden information' problem - CS is a metric that works fairly well in lane in determining who has the momentum in that lane matchup - and works fairly well in the jungle to compare which jungler is more farm-centric compared to gank-centric.

It's not really intended to be a pure objective measure of which team is dominating throughout the entirety of the game. I agree, though, that there could be micro-optimizations that we could do to accomadate for the disparity between the worth of individual minions (for example, if we made Siege Minions worth 2 CS score, or large jungle monsters worth 2 CS score).

But in short, CS is intended to be simply one of many metrics that informs you about how well someone is doing - not the absolute end-all of his financial status.
riot responds to this thread but not to massive dc's.

gg


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TB Wolf

Member

03-09-2013

Idea: For teammates, show gold total and cs. For enemies, just show CS.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-09-2013
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
riot responds to this thread but not to massive dc's.
I don't handle server issues and can't speak about them at all - my apologies that I can't update you on that status - but I'm just as much in the dark as you are.


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Marisa

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's a lot of issues with revealing the enemy gold count - mostly because of the things you've mentioned in your post - It provides a more accurate - and therefore more telling analysis of how many dragon's they've achieved - which camps they have poached and what their relative power level or how much gold they haven't spent.

While I agree with you in that it's more accurate overall - it leads to revealing a *lot* more information about your opponents than is particularly healthy, especially since a lot of early laning phase depends upon relative factors like gold spent / unspent or if they're sacrificing jungle objectives for ganks, etc. (For example, someone does Dragon in Fog, you notice your lane opponent's gold jump up - you know where their jungler is at that moment.)

While there is probably a better system to display "minion control" that skirts around the 'hidden information' problem - CS is a metric that works fairly well in lane in determining who has the momentum in that lane matchup - and works fairly well in the jungle to compare which jungler is more farm-centric compared to gank-centric.

It's not really intended to be a pure objective measure of which team is dominating throughout the entirety of the game. I agree, though, that there could be micro-optimizations that we could do to accomadate for the disparity between the worth of individual minions (for example, if we made Siege Minions worth 2 CS score, or large jungle monsters worth 2 CS score).

But in short, CS is intended to be simply one of many metrics that informs you about how well someone is doing - not the absolute end-all of his financial status.
This feels like purposeful miscommunication, much like buff timers. I mean, in theory, you can calculate the worth of each minion per minute and manually count each one to calculate the amount of gold they actually have. The data is there, it's just that you restrict the information by making it tedius which makes it seem like bull****. You're purposely fudging the amount of information given to us in order to make people make more mistakes/less informed decisions.

Why not show the gold from CS that the person has accumulated while in vision? This gives you a hard number to make better estimate on a person's gold while still not showing jungle gold or dragons unless they were seen doing them. This would help people to make better estimates on gold differences and calculate just how weak/strong they are in comparison to the other team.


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BIID

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's a lot of issues with revealing the enemy gold count - mostly because of the things you've mentioned in your post - It provides a more accurate - and therefore more telling analysis of how many dragon's they've achieved - which camps they have poached and what their relative power level or how much gold they haven't spent.

While I agree with you in that it's more accurate overall - it leads to revealing a *lot* more information about your opponents than is particularly healthy, especially since a lot of early laning phase depends upon relative factors like gold spent / unspent or if they're sacrificing jungle objectives for ganks, etc. (For example, someone does Dragon in Fog, you notice your lane opponent's gold jump up - you know where their jungler is at that moment.)

While there is probably a better system to display "minion control" that skirts around the 'hidden information' problem - CS is a metric that works fairly well in lane in determining who has the momentum in that lane matchup - and works fairly well in the jungle to compare which jungler is more farm-centric compared to gank-centric.

It's not really intended to be a pure objective measure of which team is dominating throughout the entirety of the game. I agree, though, that there could be micro-optimizations that we could do to accomadate for the disparity between the worth of individual minions (for example, if we made Siege Minions worth 2 CS score, or large jungle monsters worth 2 CS score).

But in short, CS is intended to be simply one of many metrics that informs you about how well someone is doing - not the absolute end-all of his financial status.

Why not show gold for allies only?
Edit: Seems like this is already covered, well done GD