Champion Selection: A Love Letter

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trismegistre

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Member

03-06-2013

Dear Riot:

I am not a new player by any stretch of the imagination, nor am I new in any way, shape, or form to people who delight in getting their way, regardless of group consensus.

This is a love letter from me, to you at Riot, about Champion Select, the toxic behaviors of other players, and ultimately what can be done to solve it (spoilers: nothing).

I have posted on this a few times, and it seems that I am compelled to make my own topic, so please bear with me-- this might be a bumpy ride.


To begin with, I love this game. I love how Riot has managed it and, for the most part, interacted with the player base. I do think that there are times where the interactions can be seen perhaps as a bit too much, but that is just personal opinion. The fact that there is a transparent layer of communication and capability to express your thoughts to the developer actual. . . quite frankly, that is amazing given the game being the world's most popular (after recess).

I just had a player dodge from a ranked queue (you can lolking me, I am Bronze II, no shame) because of the following interaction. While it is not exact, I am just going to give you a basic structure:

Pick 3 (P3): mid
Pick 1 (P1): mid
Pick 4 (P4): adc
Pick 5 (Me): Hi everyone
P3: ME MID
Me: Prefer mid or support, do not put me jungle, we will lose
[SIDENOTE: I have that on copy/paste. Also, I am not a good jungler]
Pick 2 (P2): top
P1: Going mid, first pick
P3: im mid
P4: P1 please go jungle
P1: NO
P3: You can mid, but so will I
Me: If you two can't work this out, I will report both of you
P3: FINE. DO IT F*G
Me: . . .
P1: im mid
P1 has selected RYZE
P3: im going ari mid
Me: What will you do if you cant mid
P3: AD AHRI
ENEMY TEAM DID STUFF !
P2 has picked Fiora
P3 has instalocked Soraka
P4: you need to jungle now
Me: Did you not read where I said we'll lose if I jungle
P3: f*ck the meta
P3: duo top
P3: DO IT
P3: DO IT F*GS
P3: IM ON A ROLE
P2: Someone for the love of god dodge
P4: Whatever
P1: im mid
Me: Okay, fine, duo mid
ENEMY TEAM DID MORE STUFF !
P4 has picked EZREAL
P3: REAL? EZREAL? NOOOOOOOOOB
P5 has picked Swain

Thus, the floodgates opened, dear readers. I would continue, but in summary, Player 3 called me every name in the book, proceeded to insult me in everything, and demanded that after I did some anatomically impossible things to uninstall and kill myself.

This is in response to me giving up the position I asked for because two people were unwilling to compromise on the mid role.

I was following what Morello said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Then work with your team to get a role comp that makes sense.

Seriously. This isn't that hard - I do it a lot, I do it on smurfs, and I have trolls in champ select very infrequently. It's not hard to get your team to cooperate if you're not being selfish :P

I was also paying attention to what Gritfrix said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I think I've seen someone make this argument about trolls before, and this is to pick on your 3/5 games comment. The distribution of players that are not willing to compromise is even between your team and the enemy team. If you are always willing to communicate and compromise, then you only have a 4/5 chances of someone who isn't, which makes your odds better than the other team's. If you are trying to work with your team in every game for the best composition, and a substantial portion of the community isn't, then on average, you will have better games than others.
At the end of the day, nothing came of this. However, despite my best intentions, we had a player who was not only hellbent on being toxic, but went out of his way to ensure that everyone on the team was forced into a defensive position. I remember I said to the player in champ select that "we obviously have to compromise with you". That does not seem to be fair, especially since we are under a time crunch as it is, we have to see what the enemy team is picking and try to pick around it, and also do any mastery adjustment as necessary. We do not have time on top of that to negotiate with a toxic player predetermined to make every player's life hell.

The argument that every team in ranked has one of these is not true. I have had games where everyone got what they wanted, or they were happy to swap, everything was lovely, and the entire chat was absolutely pleasant. Seriously, no cursing, team flaming in /all, nothing. It was much more tame than what you would hear on a saturday morning cartoon nowaday.

Yet, champ selects like the one that I just had are all too common nowaday, and they are the reason I am considering discontinuing my playing of ranked, or playing exclusively on a team where this has been discussed. When we factor in the random throwing of people-- potentially worldwide-- who have a goal going into the game (I want to win and I will win by playing ____________) and different cultures and languages. . . well, it is a weird time. Almost no one says "hello" as their first thing-- I am one of the few, it seems. It is a race, from second one, to type in the three letter combination of what your role will be, and if you have a delay, or your computer is a bit slower than someone else's. . . thus the raging and fighting begins.

The solution of compromise, dear readers, is great. Much like negotiation with hostage takers. Almost nothing can go wrong, right ? Perhaps that is too harsh of an analogy to draw, but there is truth in it. One player, then and there, has the ability to not only lose the game for you, but to waste up to an hour of your time. They have taken your entire team, and even your enjoyment, hostage, and the only compromise they will offer ?

Mid or feed.

Sure, you can report the fool after the game, but that is a reactive solution, and the solution takes some time to work through the system. We need some form of a proactive solution outside of throttling the chats of spammers and users of naughty words too often. Even those are reactive-- there is nothing the players can do, at the time of this occurrence, other than go along with the whims and give in to the demands of fun's hostage taker.

This is the problem. The solution is not "pick order > call order" or "call order > pick order". The solution will not be found in a role-checker that you select prior to queue, so that when you are in champ select, you know what you are doing, and if you dislike it then it is your issue and not your team's.

There are a few potential solutions, but none that are immediate, which is unfortunate. The primary one is the continued improvement of player-base attitude. I think that there needs to be some way by which champ select (and really, ALL lobby) chats can be viewable by the Tribunal. While I know that the game client and the game launcher are, ultimately, handled on two different platforms, down the line there could possibly be a means to implement this change. After all, I did see what those .rofl files were on the PBE, and that was deemed nigh impossible some time ago.

Dearest Riot, you have stated that community behaviour is your responsibility, and that it is one that we share. That is why there is the honor system, the Tribunal, so forth. . . but the honor system is a bit unrewarding and most players see no benefit from it, and the Tribunal, other than a few vocal folks on the forums who rage about being banned for raging in game, really has no visible effect.

I am not saying that we should have public Tribunal hearings where we get to burn the witch, but it would be nice to have something perhaps a bit more physical when it comes to rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour, respectively.

I think the best potential change would be a bigger push for ranked players to get into teams. That would seem to solve a lot of the issues, and being with a group for a decent time means that you are able to learn far better and play at a higher skill. I think there should be an in-game or in-client means by which we can recruit for our teams by which roles we are looking for, but also search for those teams with those same roles in a search.

This, of course, is not an immediate fix, but as I said these things would take time. I am quite frankly unsure of how to fix this in short term or long term ways. I think it is a shame that a player had to dodge out of a ranked game because a player was so toxic, even after being coddled, that there was no other solution for him, and due to the dodge, there is no way for me to find the toxic player's name, document it, or otherwise report him for his toxic behaviour.

That, right there, is the real crime.

Riot, as I said, this is a love letter-- I have tried your solutions, and they have worked about 60% of the time, which statistically is great. However, in most schools, that is barely passing, if not failing.

I love you guys and I want everything to rock in this game. But this is an issue that needs deep looking into-- no changes immediately, but we need to know you are looking into it, and there needs to be dialogue on what fixes, if any, you would have for it.

Thank you for paying attention, dear readers.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-06-2013
1 of 1 Riot Posts

I've been extremely busy and unfortunately haven't had as much time to jump on the forums. Other Rioters have pointed me to the various threads discussing Pick Order, Call Order and Champion Select Lobby in general.

When I have a moment of free time, I promise I'll jump on the forums and dive into the deep end discussing this topic with you guys--probably not this week, but it's something I want to do soon.


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Amuq the Native

Senior Member

03-07-2013

OP, I really feel for you, and a lot of people have been - and still are - in your shoes, way too often. I think a huge proportion of the playerbase can stand behind you on this.

I have made a thread here to ask for faster, active solutions, in addition to the reactive solutions (which work, but slowly and partially so average players just do not see concrete results) we already have.

Lyte, take all the time you need - I'm sure you're working on useful stuff for us - but when you come back to the forums, please check my thread, this is something that I really feel is important, and basically every thread opened in this Player Behaviour forum proves how out of control we feel that toxicity is.


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Yaddar

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by trismegistre View Post
Yet, champ selects like the one that I just had are all too common nowaday, and they are the reason I am considering discontinuing my playing of ranked, or playing exclusively on a team where this has been discussed. When we factor in the random throwing of people-- potentially worldwide-- who have a goal going into the game (I want to win and I will win by playing ____________) and different cultures and languages. .

IMO this is caused because people STILL feel that you can't carry yourself up playing Tanks/Jungers/Supports

and this is Coming from a jungle/support tank player... I DO sometimes feel the impotence of not being able to carry despite my best effotrs (and on top of that, being yelled at to no end when I take a kill)

1.- it is not fun to be yelled at
2.- it is not fun not to "being able" to take a kill when you are the jungler, the tank ot the support.
3.- it is not fun to have all the responsability of warding the map (while having reduced gold income) - yet IS something some of us do.
4.- it is not fun to be relegated to a second--class player most of the games. (you're the support, shut up)
5.- it is not fun to be able to ward al map and trhow everithing to save your carry or to initiate on the correct enemy (basically you know, doing your job) and yet see the team fall apart around you.

this is why (IMO) most people don't call support, or in less extent, jungler (and when they do call jungle, they pick a carry, despite if the team needs a tank)

until you don't solve unfun around playing Tanks junglers and supports (which, I have to admit, S3 is goign the right way item-wise, but the player mentality is still there -"fk you support for taking the kill"- )

(IMO) until you don't solve that unfun aspect, (and/or until you make people think about more roles before entering queue) you will still have people fighting like kids over Mid, Top and ADC

just my two cents.


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Kinvaras666

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Senior Member

03-07-2013

On my last ranked game, someone instalock Katarina, after the whole team had agreed letting me play mid (except that player that never said a word).

Then say something along the lines

"Read the summoner's code scrub, you are last pick, it is a long lasted tradition to force you into supporting"

Needless to say, said player was extremely toxic the whole game long as well (even though I agreed to support), fed the enemy mid, called her team noobs and started countless surrender votings.

I suppose it would be better to dodge when I find a player like that.


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Calderweiss

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Yes


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Rune998

Member

03-07-2013

I've had a few people bring that up before crying about how because my Elo must be lower than theirs because my pick order is lower. They go on and on about how last pick doesn't get to call positions and they just get whatever they are stuck with. When did this become a thing and further more are people really still crying about Elo even though we are on the league system now, which is much better BTW.


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DarkXuin

Member

03-07-2013

Personally, I always play support and thus almost never get called against and when I do I usually give it up (imo support players seem to be more compromising). However when I see somebody say "mid or feed" or the like I instantly just want to dodge as I know that person is going to have a negative impact on the team. From personal experience at least they always seem to be the ones that rage at everybody and never see their own faults.


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Wards win games

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Oooo, any chance this can be stickie'd to a forum so no one misses it whenever this conversation does occur? Can't wait for this one. Good guy lyte to the rescue.


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SexyChai

Junior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinvaras666 View Post
On my last ranked game, someone instalock Katarina, after the whole team had agreed letting me play mid (except that player that never said a word).

Then say something along the lines

"Read the summoner's code scrub, you are last pick, it is a long lasted tradition to force you into supporting"

Needless to say, said player was extremely toxic the whole game long as well (even though I agreed to support), fed the enemy mid, called her team noobs and started countless surrender votings.

I suppose it would be better to dodge when I find a player like that.

Yes, even though you get a timer on when you can play again, dodging really works when it comes to gaining elo/points. In season 2, I went from 900 to over 1300 by dodging toxic games. If our team lost and no one was toxic, I was perfectly fine with that because I still was able to enjoy the game. It might be a pain waiting those 15-30 minutes, but I would recommend you find a tv show online that you like so that you can pass the time while you wait for the timer to go down. :]


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