BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
17 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Armor and Magic Resist are interesting choices - which you need, and when, is a question of who the big threats on the other team is. Your order for them will vary game to game and some games - if no dpser is doing particularly well, or you're getting super fed - you might not need much of them at all. But Health? Health is always a right answer, unless you artificially insert a reason why it isn't a right answer, because the other team WILL be doing damage and Health counters all damage equally.
Armor and Magic Resistances are always the right choice - but when Armor and Magic Resistances are the de facto first choice - it will be optimal to crush your lane opponent through counter-resistances, rather than build towards the actual threat on their team.

Secondly, the power of Armor and Magic Resistance is a multiplicative statistic to your own defenses and a penalizing statistic to the opponent's lifesteal and vamp options - this makes it so that things like Shields and the like are the primary power source.

Finally, Armor and Magic Resistances are *still* go to defensive statistics - you can never make them irrelevant because they are multiplicative scalars. People aren't stacking raw Health in the competitive scene - It's true that their builds are dominated by items with Health on them - but it's frequently a heavy mix of Health and Armor (Omen/Locket/Bulwark) for example.

Even if all of that weren't true - it's still important that options have weaknesses that can be directly attacked - because otherwise, you tend to get into a steady state where certain things are "accepted" to be norms and then everything else in the game has to be balanced around that. For example, the prevalence of armor and the strength of the AD carry physical damage options meant that for any character to deal relevant damage late game that wasn't a carry - had to have either enormous free resistances or enormous piercing to even be relevant.

Quote:
If you make Health really good earlygame, you will have to bandage that by releasing a 'counter' to it mid-game, eh? Now everyone has to build those two items, every game.

That is a myopic design path at best: You cannot be making single-structure counters to baseline systems.

You need to foster emergent and diverse gameplay by offering items not which counter a particular build, but which aid a champion to perform a design goal you have set.

Do you want Ranged AD to counter tanks? When do you want that to happen? Do you want tanks to build Health? Why do you want these things?
Obviously you can't make single-structure counters to baseline systems - which is why I state repeatedly in the two goals for counter-cycles to be thus:

1. Ensure that counters exist.
2. Ensure that the counters aren't too hard and that other strategies can be competitive even if not directly countered.

I've stated this point several times - in fact several times in this thread that #1 needs to exist to ensure that item builds don't gravitate towards the things with least counters.

And that #2 needs to exist so that competitive strategies can arise to deal with things indirectly.

What happens if that counters don't exist in a cycle is that basic human risk aversion will tend to gravitate builds towards whatever the safest option is, rather than the one that makes the most sense for the character that they are on - and what results for that in that the options for attacking those characters become the same, rather than whatever makes sense for the character that you're on.

It's important to realize that every champion starts somewhere differently on the Armor / Health / Damage / Shred axis. Renekton and Cho'gath for example, sit high on the health axis, innately, due to character kit. Rammus and Leona, for example, sit on on the resistance axis. Tristanna sits high on the Damage axis - while characters like Jarvan already sit on the shred axis - hence why item cycles exist in the first place - because character cycles already exist - and you want to avoid things being solely determined at champion select. In a universe where items are being built to simply augment innate strengths - you tend to fall into a case where champion selection is frequently the only thing that matters and frequently one that cannot be played around meaningfully after the game starts.


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Last Spark

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Why do you think Evelynn is not played anymore? Well, first you nerfed his items, but kids on the comunity still called her OP. She was fun to play, you could kill one squishy, and exape with 1/8 of health. That forced ADC to be less stupid and go alone. She was killing machine after 6, but now what is left? A bruiser-squishy AP mage? She can't build AP again and excute targets like before. She was an assassin, but what assassin can't kill a target with his ult? That is Evelynn. Which is simply, stupid.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes, of course - which is why the fact that BoRK is warping lanes is a problem - because the design goal for the item is to provide sufficient mid / end-game counters to high health targets. Lane is a case where, noy only is this counter completely unnecessarily - it's often pointless because your lane opponent isn't a high health target to begin with.

In fact, the goal of most counter-items is to ensure that mid or late game - there is a path you can take to ensure dominance. It is when the mid/late game relevant statistics start warping lane when the problem bears upon the most.

Take, for example, flat armor penetration in S2 - The values of flat armor penetration in Season 2 frequently meant that AD assassins had ridiculous mid-game power spikes - because you could either afford to build armor, or you couldn't in lane. Laning phase was either dominated or sandbagged by whether or not their opponents could realistically include armor for the inevitable mid or late game clash with the carry - but this just made the feast or famine case of stacking flat penetration all the worse.
If the problem is that A: BoRK is over-slotted (being built on anything that rightclicks and pretends to scale with AD), and B: its too strong in lane, why not give the passive an AD scaling?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
18 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
If the problem is that A: BoRK is over-slotted (being built on anything that rightclicks and pretends to scale with AD), and B: its too strong in lane, why not give the passive an AD scaling?
An AD scaling passive is particularly weird on counter or come-back mechanisms because a high AD scaling implies that you are already ahead to some extent.

This is why IE/PD - although very effective at destroying tanks - isn't really a viable way to come back from a game where the enemy is outlasting you in durability. They are effective in shutting them down before they get ahead - but they have so many pre-requisites to be effective that frequently if you can meet the conditions for IE + PD to destroy tanks, you didn't need to have a way to counter them - you were already doing well enough such that they are irrelevant in many ways.

A lot of BoRK's power is in the passive - which is irrelevant if you are already doing well, which helps it not be an automatic 6th item... maybe. We'll see. :P


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
1. Ensure that counters exist.
2. Ensure that the counters aren't too hard and that other strategies can be competitive even if not directly countered.
You're thinking about this from the perspective of item versus item it seems.

You need to be asking "how does this item help a particular champion do what I want early/mid/late game".

"How do I want this class of champion to perform against what circumstances, given a certain amount of gold."

Do you want AD Assassins to be better at killing Mages? Do you want Mages to be better at killing carries?

The reverse?

You can't just say "I release this item to counter health stacking"-- for who to use?


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PapaShongo53

Senior Member

03-05-2013

I know it doesn't pertain the conversation too much, but is it intended for BotRK's passive to not work with Shaco's clone? If so how come some on-hits do and some don't?


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zlefin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

it seems to me a fair part of the problem with botrk is on the active; looking at it right now it's a 4-second large ms steal; that's HUUUUGE. most item hits only slow 2 seconds or so; the botrk slow and steal is super powerful. also, explain this:
WHY DID YOU GET RID OF MADREDS BLOODRAZOR? that was an anti-hp item; and it targetted mr instead of armor; it wasn't overpowered; but was useful for some builds.
botrk has caused piles of problems; bloodrazor didn't; and both target the same thing.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
19 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
You can't just say "I release this item to counter health stacking"-- for who to use?
If you're going to get specifically into semantics - it is essentially an item built to ensure that attack speed centric characters have a chance against high health melee characters. An equivalent anti-intent is to not deal more damage against squishy characters.

This includes both the ranged carry class and the attack speed fighter class - we don't really care who among the two is using, so long as it belongs in one of those categories. They both frequently exhibit the same desires - the necessity to move and attack - the requirement of uptime to deal the majority of the damage - and frequently having problems in being able to force ideal 1:1 situations (ranged carries can't survive in 1:1 melee, while attack speed fighters frequently can't force a 1:1 to begin with.)

Therefore, it is also specifically intended to be very decent in the 1:1 and self-peel control case, in which the health health melee bruiser class tend to excel out, in order to cancel out some of their strengths.

However, usually in these discussions, you don't need to be that specific. While there are many sub-goals and levels for items - particularly for the level of discussion that people are interested in here - repeatedly stating those subgoals would simply muddle discussion down to specifics. My apologies for being rather unspecific with regards to what you are asking for particularly - but there really wasn't any real confusion over who the item was intended for (AS centric characters that need uptime) - when it was intended for (mid-late game) and what specifically it was not intended for (against squishies, first item lane dominance.)

There's a reason why the item has the active and passive as such.


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Whisperx5

Senior Member

03-05-2013

IMO what needs to be nerfed in BoRK is the active. Provides so much peel and damage that is not even fun to get baited at. I mean he does 15% of our max HP and heal for the same amount and steal my movement speed? Sounds fun, or not.


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BlackFlameOmega

Member

03-05-2013

Just a thought on Randuin's Omen, which has also been mentioned as possibly OP:

Would it be useful to make it's passive have a sort of ramp-up? As in, "If you are hit by a basic attack, slow attack speed by x% and movement speed by y%. Stacks up to 4 times."

Keeps it as an anti-kiting item, but doesn't completely shut down a carry in 1 hit.