BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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Galgus

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Going to split hairs on you here.
Last Whisper is not a counter item.
Void Staff is a counter item.

Enough champions don't have scaling MR, and those that do scale to a lower value than their armor.
Plus, flat penetration for magic damage is fairly staple (almost every caster will have 23 + 8% by endgame from boots, runes, and masteries).

This results in anyone who *doesn't* get MR being reduced from 30 or 35 to 4.5-9 MR.
If your target has that little MR, there's no reason to get a Void Staff. You're better off building a higher AP, or higher durability item.

In contrast, all champions reach 80 armor or more without runes/masteries. And the "core build" items for adc champions doesn't include any flat penetration. Which means you only have your 12 pen from runes, which drops them to 68 armor or more. At that level, picking up a Last Whisper shows remarkable improvement in your damage output.

Therefore, I think that Void Staff is something you only buy if the majority (3+ members) of their team build significant (more than 30) magic resistance. Meanwhile, Last Whisper is something you build no matter what (and thus, not a counter build).
If the enemy builds a Runic Bullwark and there is any other MR on their team, I'd say Void Staff is a standard choice.


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Rauron

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Honestly, I feel like Hash makes a lot of solid points. He's kind of a ***** pretty often, sure, but I probably would be too in those shoes, re: all dawnboats 5ever.


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GuiltyGecko

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Warmog's Armor is not as powerful as most people make it out to be at the moment - However, the incentives to build it are there, because there is no readily apparent counter that your opponent can take.

Essentially, let's say I gave you two options:

Option A is generically strong and has no real weaknesses.

Option B is situationally strong and has a real weakness.

In general, players will tend to gravitate towards option A unless option B is so overwhelming powerful that it dwarfs option A's power. Part of this is the natural human tendency for risk aversion - part of it is because it you can't point out a situation where something is bad - you automatically gravitate towards that because there's nothing telling you 'no'.

We've seen this effect before on the more generalized fighters like Irelia. In order for a champion to be seriously considered versus Irelia - their strengths had to frequently be far more dominant than Irelia ever was to be considered "viable" - when you could just choose Irelia and have a safe time. In general, whenever we've done Option B without adding a real weakness to Option A - the results that came about are frequently more toxic or infuriating than Option A ever was.

For example, a lot of Riven's number tuning and damage was tuned to overcome Irelia's sustain strength - and making her all physical damage so that armor was an effective counter.

What this meant was that Riven was simply more toxic and frustrating to fight against than Irelia ever was - because in order for her to be played, she had to overwhelmingly destroy Irelia for people to justify picking her when she had clear counters.
I can understand that. Its why I usually still take Morgana mid. She isn't the best mid, but she doesn't have blatant counters and is a pretty safe pick.


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Tornadus5

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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3ternalTime

Junior Member

03-05-2013

so you nerf an item up the butt and then increase the price also? i can see for sure blade of ruin king will not be used after this people will just go for blood thirster welcome back to league of warmog where the other side just builds a bunch of warmogs


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
I always thought the weakness to defenses was that offense out scaled defense.

But I guess LoL has to reinvent the wheel again just to show that they're not like DotA, and therefore create more problems than even DotA managed to create.
This is called "carrying". It's working as intended...eventually. The problem was that the time frame got ridiculous in S3. If you want to compare with Dota, what's the average length of a game of LoL versus that of a Dota game? It's shorter, so carries should probably come online earlier in LoL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
For example, a hard counter to a ranged army in WH40k is not a unit immune to ranged damage (though god knows they've probably created one of those already) but rather a unit that can move and charge 24+ inches.
Isn't this the exact same in LoL? I mean, how many champs in favor atm have gapclosers longer than every ADC's AA range (except twitch ult)? Akali, Vi, Diana, Elise, KZ, J4... I'm sure I'm forgetting some. What's the counter to "melee" when it's no longer shorter-ranged than the ranged champ? Don't bring up the ranged champs' gapclosers either - all but Elise in the above list have additional gapclosers to deal with that.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
the counter cycle
Okay, this might be a problem right here.

If you're treating items as a countering cycle.

Items help champions achieve goals.

They convert time and gold into advantage.

You should not be designing items to counter eachother, because in doing that you ignore champion dynamics.

You should be designing items to help champions achieve their design goals.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
13 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Since no one has corrected Xyph yet...

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...&highlight=109

Renekton was released in Jan 2011 before Irelia was released.
I actually got both dates wrong. Irelia was Nov, 2010 and Renekton was Jan 2011. My bad on that.

Quote:
If you're treating items as a countering cycle.

Items help champions achieve goals.

You should be designing items to help champions achieve their design goals.
Armor helps melee achieve their goal of surviving to get to ranged. Armor counters help ranged achieve their goal of killing melee. The innate problem with this notion is that basic statistics help champions achieve their goals as easily as utility sidegrades.

Yes - there is a very strong argument for a world in which you could never augment basic statistics and that almost all things were utility focused in some way - but at a certain point you get to the point where items need to counter the innate strengths of champions - and some innate strengths of champions need to be replicated in items themselves - otherwise composition is the primary factor of winning a game.


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iainB85

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Xypherous, do you have any thoughts on AP itemization and how they can deal with high HP targets?

It currently feels like Liandry's is better suited for sustain AP tanks, and DFG has a lot of problems (like active being a projectile rather than instant, and a difficult build path with large rod).

Anything to share on this end?


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Warmog's Armor is not as powerful as most people make it out to be at the moment - However, the incentives to build it are there, because there is no readily apparent counter that your opponent can take.

Essentially, let's say I gave you two options:

Option A is generically strong and has no real weaknesses.

Option B is situationally strong and has a real weakness.

In general, players will tend to gravitate towards option A unless option B is so overwhelming powerful that it dwarfs option A's power. Part of this is the natural human tendency for risk aversion - part of it is because it you can't point out a situation where something is bad - you automatically gravitate towards that because there's nothing telling you 'no'.

We've seen this effect before on the more generalized fighters like Irelia. In order for a champion to be seriously considered versus Irelia - their strengths had to frequently be far more dominant than Irelia ever was to be considered "viable" - when you could just choose Irelia and have a safe time. In general, whenever we've done Option B without adding a real weakness to Option A - the results that came about are frequently more toxic or infuriating than Option A ever was.

For example, a lot of Riven's number tuning and damage was tuned to overcome Irelia's sustain strength - and making her all physical damage so that armor was an effective counter.

What this meant was that Riven was simply more toxic and frustrating to fight against than Irelia ever was - because in order for her to be played, she had to overwhelmingly destroy Irelia for people to justify picking her when she had clear counters.
If health is like Irelia, by virtue of both being too good for how few drawbacks they have, why is nerfing these things not an acceptable solution? By pushing BoRK into play to deal w/ health stacking, aren't you doing the same thing in concept as releasing an OP Riven to beat Irelia? If Hash is right about LW/VS being too strong against defenses, can we realistically make the changes he'd suggest (operate on bonus defenses instead of total) and not make bruisers OP when health stacking is still on the board? If health stacking is still on the board, how strong does BoRK need to be to disincentivize it? Can you foresee a game in which everyone buys BoRK, yet health continues to be stacked anyway?