BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
12 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
But when counterbuilds become a thing for all roles, won't this result in a game of build chicken where neither team wants to show their hand by building finished items for fear of getting counterbuilt?
This is essentially why it's important that the counter cycle isn't a hard counter cycle - but a far weaker one - one that allows champion composition / choice / etc. to naturally start them somewhere on the cycle - but not allow that cycle to be super enforced.

For example, if you have a team of heavy burst damage types and a weakly scaling carry like Ashe - the opponents are already incentivized to build health - or if they have a super hard scaling carry like Twitch - the opponents are already incentivized to build Frozen Heart or Last Whisper.

Likewise, if I'm Ashe and I load up into champion select and see Cho'Gath/Renekton/Nasus on the other team - I'm probably going to want to prioritize building some kind of health counter - just because hey, that's kind of what it's for.

Recognize that each champion "starts" somewhere on the chain due to their kit synergies and what intrinsic characteristics they have - and then it becomes apparent that you need to have cases where not counterbuilding is sub-optimal but still works due to some other strengths.

Ninja'ed by hash. Hm.

Quote:
The bigger issue is that the current offensive counterplay items (LW/Void Staff) for defence are just SO powerful that there's no point in adding other counterplay items for defence.

I feel there is too much penetration available on singular items instead of being more spread out and reduced. This in turn forces defensive items to be really strong when a LW/Void staff has not been picked up yet because their defensive values are tuned in a way that they can't be completely useless vs LW/Void Staff. This leads to the HOLY **** THAT GUY CAN TANK THE ENTIRE TEAM scenario's early/mid game.
I actually really like this line of reasoning - but the tricky thing to come across is that if these items are spread out among multiple people - the item counters can essentially hit critical mass at around the same time and create some of the some problem.

For example, BC + LW isn't really a problem on the same character - they've kind of itemized themselves out of relevance for a portion of the game. However, BC and LW on different characters is when things get really hairy.

(Although, admittedly, that could simply be the fact that BC + LW are both too strong and that it needs to be distributed out more. It's definitely an interesting thought that's worth pursuing actually.)


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Raptamei

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
You should see the kind of vitriol I spewed on forums when I was talking about game design 9 or 10 years ago. Time almost certainly makes a greater difference than you think it does.

Everyone starts somewhere - it's how they grow that's often important. I've seen the ragiest people be able to calm down and give insightful feedback once the fires / emotion dies down or they're able to control it. Hell - I used to be one of them (and I probably still am in casual conversation.)
9 or 10 years ago? Let's hope I can do it faster.

Must...grow...faster...


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dogbiter

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudia View Post
I smell League of Base Damages coming on, a meta where nobody builds items and relies on their base values only!
jax already does that


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Make LW and VS and BotRK bonus resistances/HP, not base.

Punish people for what they choose, not for who they are. (/philosophy.)

Then you can have the numbers such that LW really isn't doing jack **** to that Ezreal who was over there, and VS doesn't let Akali 100-0 the twitch.

The biggest gripe I have with these is that natural progression makes them stronger. Trinity has sort of "this would be really OP if it did full effect early on" balance going for it, but LW is a late game counter item, and VS is a late game counter item, and they just happen to mechanically be really good mid game even uncountered.


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Cloud Potato

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Make LW and VS and BotRK bonus resistances/HP, not base.

Punish people for what they choose, not for who they are. (/philosophy.)

Then you can have the numbers such that LW really isn't doing jack **** to that Ezreal who was over there, and VS doesn't let Akali 100-0 the twitch.
Interesting... it would make a bigger distinction between Penetration and Reduction. In that case though, we could probably throw out Flat or %, since % would mean less and Flat is currently failed in its implementation.

Edit: Throw out Flat Penetration.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud Potato View Post
Interesting... it would make a bigger distinction between Penetration and Reduction. In that case though, we could probably throw out Flat or %, since % would mean less and Flat is currently failed in its implementation.

Edit: Throw out Flat Penetration.
flat penetration is a %damage increase that gets weaker against tanky opponents. Mechanically it works as its supposed to in gameplay: Kill squishies.


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Arcus Veles

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
As much as you guys rag on hash - You should see the kind of vitriol I spewed on forums when I was talking about game design 9 or 10 years ago. Time almost certainly makes a greater difference than you think it does.

Everyone starts somewhere - it's how they grow that's often important. I've seen the ragiest people be able to calm down and give insightful feedback once the fires / emotion dies down or they're able to control it. Hell - I used to be one of them (and I probably still am in casual conversation.)

That's not to say I approve of what I did in the past, a lot of it was, quite frankly, amateur on my part - but it definitely pays to remember your roots and remember that you know.. everyone used to be that guy.
I'm sure if Xypherous from ten years ago came on to the forums now and acted the way you say we'd tell him to stop making a fool of himself and shower him with downvotes too.


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Make LW and VS and BotRK bonus resistances/HP, not base.

Punish people for what they choose, not for who they are. (/philosophy.)

Then you can have the numbers such that LW really isn't doing jack **** to that Ezreal who was over there, and VS doesn't let Akali 100-0 the twitch.

The biggest gripe I have with these is that natural progression makes them stronger. Trinity has sort of "this would be really OP if it did full effect early on" balance going for it, but LW is a late game counter item, and VS is a late game counter item, and they just happen to mechanically be really good mid game even uncountered.
Hmmm, why not have %pen operate off of bonus all together, so you catch all the potential abusers at once? Flat I would think would need stay the same, as would reductions.

To be clear, I'm talking about tweaking how %pen is applied as a rule, so the formula would calculate it at %pen of bonus stats first, then flat against the remaining total.


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Cloud Potato

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
flat penetration is a %damage increase that gets weaker against tanky opponents. Mechanically it works as its supposed to in gameplay: Kill squishies.
Do we really need a stat that's intended to deal more damage to squishies than tankies? Because AD/AP pretty much does that already.


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Vanadi

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
For example, BC + LW isn't really a problem on the same character - they've kind of itemized themselves out of relevance for a portion of the game. However, BC and LW on different characters is when things get really hairy.

(Although, admittedly, that could simply be the fact that BC + LW are both too strong and that it needs to be distributed out more. It's definitely an interesting thought that's worth pursuing actually.)
The abuse scenario from BC+LW on different characters probably boils down to the fact that items that benefit the entire team are generally too strong (waiting for bulwark nerfs, abyssal already nerfed, frozen heart already nerfed, Black cleaver nerfed) because they give massive amounts of free stats to the entire team.