BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
11 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Apply for a job at Riot. i dare you. oh gawd...
As much as you guys rag on hash - You should see the kind of vitriol I spewed on forums when I was talking about game design 9 or 10 years ago. Time almost certainly makes a greater difference than you think it does.

Everyone starts somewhere - it's how they grow that's often important. I've seen the ragiest people be able to calm down and give insightful feedback once the fires / emotion dies down or they're able to control it. Hell - I used to be one of them (and I probably still am in casual conversation.)

That's not to say I approve of what I did in the past, a lot of it was, quite frankly, amateur on my part - but it definitely pays to remember your roots and remember that you know.. everyone used to be that guy.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

LW and VS are natural build items because of how scaling armor/MR works. Most tanks will just naturally hit the 80 MR point by MR runes + MR/lvl + base MR + masteries + the odd MR item such as merc treads. Most tanks will hit ~95 armor by basic setups, veering more towards 100.

ANY defensive items at all are enough to make VS + LW efficient, and more often simply time will make them efficient.

Now my 350 armor Nasus with frozen heart + omen needs a LW somewhere, but it shouldn't be geered towards Udyr who bought BotRK and just happened to get 110 armor cause he has unnaturally high armor to make up for his shortcomings.


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually going to argue that LW and Void Staff are not actually counter-items right now but that seems to be a personal and pretty unpopular sentiment.
I always thought they were more of a late game damage insurance. Something I would pick up early only if the enemy was stacking MR/ARMOR hard, and would get it late so that people would need alot more armor/MR to mitigate a large portion of my damage. And if I wasn't a main damage dealer, I'd usually ignore them altogether. I'm probably alone in that though.

Sometimes, I think playing Heimer so much has made me a little unaware of how bad the item balance actually is. He is a sustained damage caster, and most new items he doesn't use anyways, or at least not well, like Liandry's.


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Cloud Potato

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually going to argue that LW and Void Staff are not actually counter-items right now but that seems to be a personal and pretty unpopular sentiment.
According to some math I did on autoattack damage, I found LW (and BC) to both be poor choices except as last items or against heavy Armor stacking (which makes sense). I see them built rather early often in games despite this, although I'm not sure how well they do when you bring in abilities (although BC has other things going for it, mainly the fact it builds out of the Brutalizer). On the other hand, my math showed IE being top dog most of the time, excpet Runaan's Hurricane which kicks everythings ass, so maybe my math is a bit off.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

also, the problem right now is that instead of all:

All defenses are counterplay.

It's

All counterplay are defense.

It's EXTREMELY rare to see a champion build the more "out there" items to counter someone. Pretty much the only case I see is Vlad building a Rylais to fight Olaf. Volibear doesn't build swiftness to fight Kayle, Udyr has no super speed boost item, and frozen mallet is wayyyy too expensive to even consider. (Zephyr has a 1200 combine cost, thornmail just sucks, Omen is the only super efficient armor item so you build it even aginst pantheon, etc.)


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Raptamei

Senior Member

03-05-2013

@Xypherous

The counterbuild thing is new in S3; before, everyone just kind of followed the same build unless everyone built resistances in which case you prioritised the resist breaker.

But when counterbuilds become a thing for all roles, won't this result in a game of build chicken where neither team wants to show their hand by building finished items for fear of getting counterbuilt? (cfr Dota 2 All Pick, which often becomes hero pick chicken)


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Freudia

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
But when counterbuilds become a thing for all roles, won't this result in a game of build chicken where neither team wants to show their hand by building finished items for fear of getting counterbuilt? (cfr Dota 2 All Pick, which often becomes hero pick chicken)
I smell League of Base Damages coming on, a meta where nobody builds items and relies on their base values only!


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Mirror

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually going to argue that LW and Void Staff are not actually counter-items right now but that seems to be a personal and pretty unpopular sentiment.
Do you think this would change on its own in that world where only "true tanks" grow free armor/MR with each level?


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Vanadi

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
also, the problem right now is that instead of all:

All defenses are counterplay.

It's

All counterplay are defense.

It's EXTREMELY rare to see a champion build the more "out there" items to counter someone. Pretty much the only case I see is Vlad building a Rylais to fight Olaf. Volibear doesn't build swiftness to fight Kayle, Udyr has no super speed boost item, and frozen mallet is wayyyy too expensive to even consider.
The bigger issue is that the current offensive counterplay items (LW/Void Staff) for defence are just SO powerful that there's no point in adding other counterplay items for defence.

I feel there is too much penetration available on singular items instead of being more spread out and reduced. This in turn forces defensive items to be really strong when a LW/Void staff has not been picked up yet because their defensive values are tuned in a way that they can't be completely useless vs LW/Void Staff. This leads to the HOLY **** THAT GUY CAN TANK THE ENTIRE TEAM scenario's early/mid game.

Spreading out penetration over different damage items (more things like Black cleaver % penetration without the stacks) and removing LW/Void Staff could go a long way. LW/Void staff create binary scenario's where a target can't be killed before, and is suddenly squishy as hell after.

Obviously defensive stats need to be reevaluated at the same time.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
@Xypherous

The counterbuild thing is new in S3; before, everyone just kind of followed the same build unless everyone built resistances in which case you prioritised the resist breaker.

But when counterbuilds become a thing for all roles, won't this result in a game of build chicken where neither team wants to show their hand by building finished items for fear of getting counterbuilt? (cfr Dota 2 All Pick, which often becomes hero pick chicken)
You can just naturally assume Nasus is going to go defensive items and that QSS and LW is going to beat him. You can just naturally assume Kha'zix is going to go for some sort of "killing you" build.

No MOBA shifts characters to massively with items that you can't predict what to build against them anymore.