BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Sure - I don't disagree with you that the problem is easily fixed by forcing players into suboptimal builds via bundling of statistics.

Is that necessarily the path that we want for our game? Not really.

As for the itemization for pure defense is fine part - I actually think that's the reason why pure control tanks are actually something we can support - even if people would prefer to replace them with damaging and controlling tanks every chance that they can get. XD
creating an environment where you can freely pick and choose whatever you want is bad in itself. For how much MTG you seem to base your design principles on you seem to forget the massive principle of "you can't always get what you want, but if you try some time you might find you get what you need." If only Red could get an amazing evasive beater to chip off your last bits of health.

If I could play Tau and just build my kroot 100% stally defense then that'd be perfect. But I can't, because then my opponents would need to powercreep themselves to defeat my min/maxed out army.

Right there is the issue. If I can min max then you have to powercreep to meet my min max, then there needs to be counters to min maxing, but the counters need to be so powerful that... bla bla it ends up with LW+QSS ranged carries.


Also, on topic to the thread, thornmail sucks. If it had an active that reduced my damage taken by 50% and reflected that damge for 4 seconds that would be ideal. Tons of counterplay in that I just built 2200 gold in 0 damage and you can ignore me to ignore the effect. The fact its passive is "always on" means it has to be weak enough that thornmail doesn't autowin lane, weak enough that you can still focus me, and weak enough that nobody bothers building it.

Also thornmail is another 2k gold defensive item. You can't just fill your inventory with mid game defensive items no matter how hard riot tries to make that a reality.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
8 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Right there is the issue. If I can min max then you have to powercreep to meet my min max, then there needs to be counters to min maxing, but the counters need to be so powerful that... bla bla it ends up with LW+QSS ranged carries.
Considering that LW+QSS ranged carries aren't particularly good right now - I'm not actually sure what you're driving at here.

Quote:
For how much MTG you seem to base your design principles on you seem to forget the massive principle of "you can't always get what you want, but if you try some time you might find you get what you need." If only Red could get an amazing evasive beater to chip off your last bits of health.
Red does have amazing evasive beaters to chip off your last bits of health - Hasty Flying Dragons. Thundermaw Hellkite? Bladetusk Boar?

They cost them appropriately which is the crux of the issue here.

BoRK right now is clearly not costed appropriately for the deficiencies it's trying to make up for - and that's entirely my bad.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

I kinda forget how early on Irelia came cause she was put in a closet for like half a year.

give me one second though, I just wanted to say that.


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LeVentNoir

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeGothitelle View Post
Thornmail doesn't even counter BotRK

If you've watched voyboy's stream, he went 0/3 against the enemy singed as ezreal, built botrk, singed built thornmail and he still went pretty even in lane. (lifesteal counteracts the on hit damage you receive, active lets you kite)
I had my full AS, Full Crits MF build, and I couldn't deal with enemy Rammus, due to thorn mail, Just wasted myself faster than him. Had to let other people soften him up or LS on minions and take him out in chunks.

Oh, and my build was 2xIE, PD, SS and BotRK.


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KittenMewMewMew

Junior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
I kinda forget how early on Irelia came cause she was put in a closet for like half a year.

give me one second though, I just wanted to say that.
Haven't you publicly humiliated yourself enough for one day?

On a different note, you should really try to rehearse and maybe even write your videos in advance - if only just one practice run-through. I think it would really help your problems with flow and clarity.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Considering that LW+QSS ranged carries aren't particularly good right now - I'm not actually sure what you're driving at here.

Red does have amazing evasive beaters to chip off your last bits of health - Hasty Flying Dragons. Thundermaw Hellkite? Bladetusk Boar?

They cost them appropriately which is the crux of the issue here.

BoRK right now is clearly not costed appropriately for the deficiencies it's trying to make up for - and that's entirely my bad.
I feel the new examples for red (and by that I only mean the dragon, dat dragon) are more driven by red being bad for so long that MTG gave them some bonus bucks. They still hardly compare to the powercreep all (nonblack) colors have gotten in creatures.

BUT THEN AGAIN I hate MTG and their forced creature powercreep because they refuse to stop printing cheap easy counters to creatures which caused thrun the last troll which caused an artifact that can beat hexproof which will cause X and Y on the horizon and-

which is why I hate counters. People should be able to play whatever they want to play and counters should only be forced in heavy abuse situations (such as a tactical marine blob) and should not be used because eventually people are just going to naturally get enough armor or HP to make your item worthwhile in the end.

Which is the crux of the issue. Udyr with masteries and a spirit visage (200 HP) gets 2900 HP at level 18. That is not HP stacking. Yet BotRK becomes ideal against him, and so does LW because of his passive. So Udyr just being udyr gets hard countered by itemization and has no end game. What does Udyr do in response to that?


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Caítlyn

Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Irelia was released November, 2011.

Renekton was released January, 2012.
LOL hashinshin get owned LOL


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Loman

Junior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Option A in this scenario is Health. Option B in this scenario is Armor / Resistances.

We added a weakness to Option A - Health by introducing BoRK because Option B - Armor has a weakness in Armor Pen.

This is why there needs to be a counter to health directly - because if you nerf health - all you do is force the issue - now armor is much much more overpowered than Health ever is / was and that's why you'd build it.

Essentially for the Irelia analogy - instead of making Riven (Option B) overpowered in a lot of ways - we should've given Irelia a real weakness so that Riven didn't have to be so overpowered to exist in the same environment as Irelia.
I really think BoRK was overnerf due to the fact bruiser and tanks will still a fair amount of armor, the lifesteal active is too weak if you take armor into account. Option A will still be abused because it also counters magic damage.


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Arcus Veles

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
there's also the fact that most damage items cap off at 2700-3300 in cost, where as most tank items cap off at 2000-3000 gold. I can have locket and a giant's belt before you can have bloodthirster.

How about you drop the price of damage items but bring their price point down so A. They're achievable in time, and B. End game the AD carry doesn't have 4k more gold in his 6 item inventory than the 6 item tank.

You could also create more hybrid damage/tank items that are actually powerful enough to stray off min/maxing. If I'm not going to max one stat route (therefore splitting my multiplying benefits) I should get more total stats on the item to make up for it.
Hybrid tank/damage items sound dangerously like bruiser items to me. A lot of Jarvan/Vi/Xin/etc. with Sunfire, Locket, Maw, etc. already doing decent damage while being a pain in the ass to peel and kill. We don't need more of that.


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Everspace

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Considering that LW+QSS ranged carries aren't particularly good right now - I'm not actually sure what you're driving at here.

Red does have amazing evasive beaters to chip off your last bits of health - Hasty Flying Dragons. Thundermaw Hellkite? Bladetusk Boar?
There is also the reach that burn allows.