BORK? Why not bring back Thornmail?

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Pryotra

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Option A in this scenario is Health.

Option B in this scenario is Armor.

We added a weakness to Option A - Health by introducing BoRK.
Thanks for clearing that up. Was really confusing there. However, It concerns me that BoRK was only considered good when it got ridiculous. Does that point to Health being problematic, or Armor being too weak, and every thing else tuned appropriately?


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MaruFrozen

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Right - I'm saying that when the item is so strong that it necessitates a counter-item or you simply lose - that item is suffocating item choice.

However, the thing it was built to counter was suffocating gameplay in a different way - in that you tend to always gravitate towards options with no counters available rather than more powerful options that could be countered. Risk aversion/mitigation is simply that strong of a desire.

It's two things: A Health-Stack item counter needs to exist and it needs to be a viable choice - and additionally, when your opponent builds the health-stack item counter - it also needs to be a viable choice to make some other option to not directly counter it.

Basically if A > B and C > B, there needs to be some option D that D < B but still equal to C.
So essentially we have to wait until your charts say 'everyone is building BORK no matter what' to see it balanced?

I guess I can start using it...


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
6 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Thanks for clearing that up. Was really confusing there. However, It concerns me that BoRK was only considered good when it got ridiculous. Does that point to Health being problematic, or Armor being too weak, and every thing else tuned appropriately?
I don't think it was only considered good when it got ridiculous - and more so that I screwed up by making it too ridiculous when I needed to only make it slightly silly.

Quote:
So essentially we have to wait until your charts say 'everyone is building BORK no matter what' to see it balanced?

I guess I can start using it...
We're actually hotfixing it right now - hence the server outage - to make the item slightly more in line (or majorly overnerfing it, I suppose, depending on who you ask specifically.)


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
In a lot of ways, DoTA essentially forces the issue. You cannot realistically build defenses in DoTA without building offense - minus INT based heroes, who admittedly kind of suffer from this.

However, both the Agility and Strength routes force a lot of defenses onto the character.

However, in the AP/AD scaling case that we have - we have completely separate defensive/offensive itemization. In many ways - this does present a lot of new problems as you've pointed out - but in many ways, it also allows us to make true glass cannon characters without simply making them feel like glass cannons because everything else's baseline damage is so high.
the problem LoL has created is given the choice of building full defense with 0 damage, in a min max tournament/high ELO environment the melee champions WILL be min maxing pure survivability since that just makes the most sense in their role.

There are many DotA champions that would never want to touch any damage but are forced to by itemization.

LoL has said "itemization for pure defense is fine! But doing no damage isn't fun... so you need to do damage when pure tank! But now you're doing damage and tanking... so we need an item for damage heroes to keep pace with you! But they'll out scale you in the end anyway..."

QSS getting an upgrade, for example, has made it so Nasus needs to be even crazier late game since every AD is going to get a cleanse, and a free massive armor shred.

Oh, also, Riven was created to beat Irelia, and Irelia was created to beat Renekton. You personally caused both the free sustain and free damage powercreep in top lane. I don't know why you always bring this up since it really doesn't look the best for you.


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Pryotra

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03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I don't think it was only considered good when it got ridiculous - and more so that I screwed up by making it too ridiculous when I needed to only make it slightly silly.

We're actually hotfixing it right now - hence the server outage - to make the item slightly more in line (or majorly overnerfing it, I suppose, depending on who you ask specifically.)
But is it OK for an item to need silliness in balance? Sry if I am sounding rude, I am in college atm to get a developer degree, so this is actually relevant to what I am learning. Well, kinda...


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hashinshin

Senior Member

03-05-2013

there's also the fact that most damage items cap off at 2700-3300 in cost, where as most tank items cap off at 2000-3000 gold. I can have locket and a giant's belt before you can have bloodthirster.

How about you drop the price of damage items but bring their price point down so A. They're achievable in time, and B. End game the AD carry doesn't have 4k more gold in his 6 item inventory than the 6 item tank.

You could also create more hybrid damage/tank items that are actually powerful enough to stray off min/maxing. If I'm not going to max one stat route (therefore splitting my multiplying benefits) I should get more total stats on the item to make up for it.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-05-2013
7 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
the problem LoL has created is given the choice of building full defense with 0 survivability in a min max tournament/high ELO environment the melee champions WILL be min maxing pure survivability since that just makes the most sense in their role.

There are many DotA champions that would never want to touch any damage but are forced to by itemization.

LoL has said "itemization for pure defense is fine! But doing no damage isn't fun... so you need to do damage when pure tank! But now you're doing damage and tanking... so we need an item for damage heroes to keep pace with you! But they'll out scale you in the end anyway..."
Sure - I don't disagree with you that the problem is easily fixed by forcing players into suboptimal builds via bundling of statistics.

Is that necessarily the path that we want for our game? Not really.

As for the itemization for pure defense is fine part - I actually think that's the reason why pure control tanks are actually something we can support - even if people would prefer to replace them with damaging and controlling tanks every chance that they can get. XD

Quote:
Oh, also, Riven was created to beat Irelia, and Irelia was created to beat Renekton. You personally caused both the free sustain and free damage powercreep in top lane. I don't know why you always bring this up since it really doesn't look the best for you.
Irelia was released November, 2011.

Renekton was released January, 2012.

If Irelia was created to beat Renekton - Ezreal has some major mind-reading powers. Although, that would explain a lot of things...

I mean, sure I'll take the blame for free sustain and free damage powercreep in top-lane - but I take issue with the fact that Irelia was created to beat Renekton. Additionally - I'm not sure why I shouldn't bring up things that make me look horrible. The reason why I harp on Riven being overpowered is one of my mistakes - and one that I can harp on easily because it highlights that I have been wrong in the past. I'm not out to make myself look good or anything here.


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108th Fruit

Senior Member

03-05-2013

The fact that you remade madred's bloodrazer, gave it a better version of DFG for ad casters/carries/bruisers (arguable), made the build path RIDICULOUSLY EASY, made it cost 1k less gold, and gave it some of the best overall offensive stats in the game make me question Riot's balance so hard.


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NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Hey Xypherous when you're done with the discussion in this thread, I'd like to talk a bit about Hurricane over here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=35276301


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MaruFrozen

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Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
We're actually hotfixing it right now - hence the server outage - to make the item slightly more in line (or majorly overnerfing it, I suppose, depending on who you ask specifically.)
Oh...well that makes sense then. Certainly explains the downtime.