I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by HeyLPG View Post
Thank you for making a statement on this. I can't stress enough how grateful we are to have you at Riot. I mean if it weren't for you, we'd only have the Lead Content Designer. Who does nothing. Thank you Xypherous.
Morello probably does a lot more than you'd think. We on the forums have a very limited window into Live Design.


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Nitroll

Junior Member

03-04-2013

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BotRK is a resilience focused item - that is supposed to be somewhat ineffective or unattractive if you are already winning. Having cheap prices allows BotRK fit into this resilience pattern a bit more - as anyone who's ever tried to save 1550 on a B.F. Sword while behind will attest.
Even when winning a lane, you will not always be able to buy a high cost item like a B.F. Sword. For example, you may recall after getting kills in the lane and have to decide whether to go back to lane without stronger items to eventually purchase a B.F. Sword, or skew your build path by purchasing a pickaxe.

With BotRK being built solely from low cost items, even when you are ahead in the lane, it means you will always be able to come back into the lane being stronger.


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Pro Anïvïa

Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
As for MR - MR feels weak because Void Staff is actually just a generalist damage item rather than a true MR counter so every AP worth his salt has one. That's probably a problem - but one that I'd like to watch a bit more.
im guessing you were the one who tested nerfing void staff down to 60 AP for 1 pbe patch then


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
28 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
Thank you for making a statement on this. I can't stress enough how grateful we are to have you at Riot. I mean if it weren't for you, we'd only have the Lead Content Designer. Who does nothing. Thank you Xypherous.
The power level of this item and the damage it's done to the game is entirely my fault to begin with. I did the items - I ignored the late-game feedback that would've done these nerfs earlier. It's not that other people do nothing - but I am the one who is at fault here for releasing something that is this warping.


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jimmy57

Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Stating this simply: We were not happy with the amount of damage output that an S2 AD carry had - and how much that was warping the timing windows and the defenses that every other character class needed to have.



Here's the intrinsic reasoning for being a little heavy-handed:

1. If we left it balanced or overpowered - at the end of the day, everyone would still use it, find that it works out okay, and keep using it.

2. If we shoot for slightly weaker than balanced, at the end of the day, everyone who would still use it, find that it doesn't work but in certain cases it will still work.

We can then expand on those slightly weak cases because now we're better able to identify them - rather than it still seeing it as generalist as it is.
But why are you nerfing the AD carries items? Why don't you instead, revert BotRK or something, and start nerfing the bruiser items? Like, if I could play double bruiser bot, it would be so much better than adc


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The SoulEmperor

Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by Diovresu View Post
So you're saying there should be an item to punish people for having items that make them tankier? Sounds like Thornmail 2.0 except targeted at everyone but ADCs.
Thorn mail is only great when there is no significant AP on the opposite team. This item is only great when several enemies stack health, but if only 1-2 enemies stack health, it may not be cost effective. So yeah, it will reduce people tendency to get health even on ADC and APC.


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DEADLIFTSbrah

Senior Recruiter

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

But the item is clearly overpowered on live and ruining the game experience!

Most likely. However, I'm more concerned with whether the item feels counterable at this stage. Rest assured though, we're not going to wait on the next patch to fix it. We knew going out that the item could have come out pretty crazy - and watching it over the weekend - it has been pretty crazy at is.

So we'll be hotfixing this as soon as we're comfortable with the server situation (Along with some other bugs.)
so why even release item that the devs are calling overpowered after 2 days? do you guys not see that releasing and item like this with its cost is clearly over the top?

i dont get it. who gives the greenlight on this stuff?


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Bump N Grind

Senior Member

03-04-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At the end of some far future day - I feel like we might need to nerf Last Whisper to 30% and BC down to 20% but in order to do that - we probably need to people to both recognize the power of Randuin's Omen and such and hit that as well.

As for MR - MR feels weak because Void Staff is actually just a generalist damage item rather than a true MR counter so every AP worth his salt has one. That's probably a problem - but one that I'd like to watch a bit more.
Following up on the idea of making BRK a more "on-hit" type of item with high AS and low AD, couldn't BRK be a sufficient replacement for LW in cases where HP was high and Armor wasn't so high? Perhaps you would not need to nerf LW since it would be a strategic counter to high armor and BRK a counter for higher HP.


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InertBlowfish

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At the end of some far future day - I feel like we might need to nerf Last Whisper to 30% and BC down to 20% but in order to do that - we probably need to people to both recognize the power of Randuin's Omen and such and hit that as well.

As for MR - MR feels weak because Void Staff is actually just a generalist damage item rather than a true MR counter so every AP worth his salt has one. That's probably a problem - but one that I'd like to watch a bit more.
I disagree.

MR feels weak because there is no dedicated MR item.

MR is a little bit here, a little bit there - such as merc treads, spirit visage (sometimes), Hexdrinker (situational), abyssal (situational/class specific) veil (situational/class specific) all giving relatively low amounts. Bulwark is the only real AP counter at the moment.

As opposed to armour being all, "HEY! YOU GOT SOME AD PROBLEMS?! COME AT ME FROZEN HEART, RANDUINS, THORNMAIL, SUNFIRE!"


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
29 of 30 Riot Posts

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But why are you nerfing the AD carries items? Why don't you instead, revert BotRK or something, and start nerfing the bruiser items? Like, if I could play double bruiser bot, it would be so much better than adc
We haven't started nerfing the bruiser items because it has not been clear that it has been the items that have been doing it.

For example, Xin Zhao is crazy. Sure, itemization helped Xin Zhao a lot - but not all bruisers are crazy. Just a subset of bruisers. Is it an item thing - or do this subset of bruisers share a quality that make them very very good right now?

And as it turns out, they either have ridiculous amounts of free resistances or resistance piercing that were holdovers from S2. At least that's the working theory.

Quote:
so why even release item that the devs are calling overpowered after 2 days? do you guys not see that releasing and item like this with its cost is clearly over the top?
I'll chalk this one up to major misalignment of my theory versus reality.

That and I really didn't consider the early game lane warping enough - which is what is causing a lot of the excess power at the moment.

Basically - my bad.