BotRK: Not OP, just too cost-efficient

First Riot Post
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Blackthorn

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricthunder View Post
I agree, though 700+ is an exaggeration (700 from 15% of the targets health means 4666 target HP). Nitpicking aside, a 500ish heal is still huge.

The only change I would make is to have the active heal for 1/3rd of the damage it deals (or 1/2 if you want to make conservative changes).
700 may happen more than you think in the health stacking meta but yes its not 700 usually but if you target the shen with warmogs 2 giants belts then boom you have half your hp back.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricthunder View Post
I agree, though 700+ is an exaggeration (700 from 15% of the targets health means 4666 target HP). Nitpicking aside, a 500ish heal is still huge.

The only change I would make is to have the active heal for 1/3rd of the damage it deals (or 1/2 if you want to make conservative changes).
Maybe nerf it to 1/3 for the next patch and work up from there? Or even give it a hard cap, like: Heal can't exceed your total AD?

Another suggestion I saw was letting the active percent scale with AD, like 5% + 1% per X bonus AD, as the damage it does?


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FeralPony

Live Balance Designer

03-04-2013
1 of 2 Riot Posts

Im hopping in this thread because there is a lot of positive discussion is going on and I wanted to give you guys a heads up as to what is happening with the item. We will be hotfixing this item and I want to give some heads up as to our changes and why.

The item is too cost effective.
Well be increasing the cost a bit and were shaving a few points off of the AD when you upgrade the item. BotRK is geared towards attack speed and making these changes helps bring it in line and keeps its intended purpose while keeping the unique elements of the item intact and powerful.
As yashinihao mentions earlier this thread a lot of high tier items are cost effective. This inherently isnt a bad thing but in this case in particular due to the power of the unique effects we really want to keep the power of the item into its unique elements and not be just about the stat efficiency so were lowering the cost effectiveness overall a bit. It is currently too effective compared to comparable choices.

The active heal will apply post-mitigation instead of pre-mitigation.
Currently Armor is the proper counter to this item and although many players have not made the transition to purchasing armor items we feel the active heal is too strong atm. This may not be the most elegant change to the problem as it does make the heal more effective against low armored targets instead of tanks and fighters due to their substantially higher armor values. We will however, continue to assess and test different approaches but we did not want to ignore this issue in the short term.

We're reducing the damage cap of the item versus minions.
This items identity is that of a counter to high health enemies, currently it is providing far too much power in securing global objectives (baron, dragon, spider boss) and almost trivializing these objectives. By reducing this element of the item we can focus on its core power as an item meant to counter high health enemies.


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Ansaa

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralPony View Post
Everything I said.
Everything sounds good! Its supposed to counter health stacking and continues to do so, but you're toning it down and so that it doesn't secure objectives/huge heal. Sounds good


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FeralPony

Live Balance Designer

03-04-2013
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by iatre View Post
How about they replace the two daggers with a recurve bow, and keep the combine cost the same? It makes it harder to rush (can't build in pieces), and increases the gold by a bit.
This is something we've talked about but it is not a good candidate for the hotfix, since they tend to come without the attention and heralding the accompanies the normal patch cycle and can catch players by surprise for pretty minimal gains. Picking up daggers because you are expecting to build them into an item that no longer requires them causes a lot of negative impact in game. This is a better change for the normal patch cycle if we want to go down that route.

I do think it would be nice for recurve bow to have another build option though.


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RexSaur

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralPony View Post
Im hopping in this thread because there is a lot of positive discussion is going on and I wanted to give you guys a heads up as to what is happening with the item. We will be hotfixing this item and I want to give some heads up as to our changes and why.

The item is too cost effective.
Well be increasing the cost a bit and were shaving a few points off of the AD when you upgrade the item. BotRK is geared towards attack speed and making these changes helps bring it in line and keeps its intended purpose while keeping the unique elements of the item intact and powerful.
As yashinihao mentions earlier this thread a lot of high tier items are cost effective. This inherently isnt a bad thing but in this case in particular due to the power of the unique effects we really want to keep the power of the item into its unique elements and not be just about the stat efficiency so were lowering the cost effectiveness overall a bit. It is currently too effective compared to comparable choices.

The active heal will apply post-mitigation instead of pre-mitigation.
Currently Armor is the proper counter to this item and although many players have not made the transition to purchasing armor items we feel the active heal is too strong atm. This may not be the most elegant change to the problem as it does make the heal more effective against low armored targets instead of tanks and fighters due to their substantially higher armor values. We will however, continue to assess and test different approaches but we did not want to ignore this issue in the short term.

We're reducing the damage cap of the item versus minions.
This items identity is that of a counter to high health enemies, currently it is providing far too much power in securing global objectives (baron, dragon, spider boss) and almost trivializing these objectives. By reducing this element of the item we can focus on its core power as an item meant to counter high health enemies.
I agree with all changes, expect for the active heal change.

Maybe could you make it heal like 50% of the damage done PRE mitigation?It would really suck if you were forced to use the active on squishier champs, this basically makes botrk weaker for adcs who want to peel themselfes from bruisers while making the said bruiser diving the adc unnafected by the change.

imo botrk should be a item focused on adcs, since they have been needing some help since the start of the season.


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Gulma

Senior Member

03-04-2013

if its not op why increase the cost lol


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o bdp o

Senior Member

03-04-2013

I understand the nerfs were needed, but making these changes will just make this item subpar to the other adc items that there currently are. It was nice while it lasted for a couple of days anyways.


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Lilja

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralPony View Post
We're reducing the damage cap of the item versus minions.
This item’s identity is that of a counter to high health enemies, currently it is providing far too much power in securing global objectives (baron, dragon, spider boss) and almost trivializing these objectives. By reducing this element of the item we can focus on its core power as an item meant to counter high health enemies.
I feel like the changes to BORK with the Quinn patch made it less attractive for junglers, and lowering the damage to monsters even more feels like offensive junglers that build this item are just getting slapped around.

BORK seems too good at securing objectives because EVERYONE builds it. But other roles outside of junglers are building it for the active and stats, not the damage to monsters. Nerf the stats or active, and it will go back to a situational item, and still be good for junglers. Nerf the damage to monsters and it hits junglers more than anyone else.

The item needs to be defined. It'll either be good for AA-based champion, like it is now, or a counter to health / Jungle item like it WAS. Either way I am sad because BORK got changed, then everyone is building it, then it will get nerfed. To a jungler, you just lost an offensive item you might build and ADC's gained an item you always build.


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xSGxSamurai

Senior Recruiter

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by feralpony View Post
i do think it would be nice for recurve bow to have another build option though.
Pls, There are a few items that just lack a good item to build into. Recurve being one of them. I mean Hurricane on ADC's sure, SoTD on some champs ok, Wits end is meh imo (Because things like Stinger give the same attack speed and build into other things.) IMHO Negatron build items are kinda !@#$ to be polite.