@Riot confused about reasoning for Zed's Q change

First Riot Post
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Send Me Lewds

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Or at least second, since the standard build that I saw was max E, max W, leave Q for last.
But that makes sense. In wanting us to max W last it fails to utilize the greatest potential of that move, which is the passive AD. Not to mention the lower CD.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiftsLikeGaston View Post
But that makes sense. In wanting us to max W last it fails to utilize the greatest potential of that move, which is the passive AD. Not to mention the lower CD.
And the net +15 energy/level...


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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03-01-2013
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Here's the thing: It still doesn't do that.

E's base is still such that given the fact you can cast 3 Es for every 2 Qs, E is more reliable, roughly equivalent base damage, cheaper in energy cost, and offers more slow to stick with via shadow. It's just inferior to Q right now, and will be unless you nerf the hell out of it. Which really kills the uniqueness that E max on Zed brings (unstoppable steady health mulching machine) and makes him another bland QEW/QWE maxer.

Edit: If you're able to hit shadow, then Q slightly outperforms E. But in terms of risk and effort for reward, it's really not worth it, and I don't think it should be made worth it.
Here's a question: why don't you think it should be made worth it?


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Zinwrath

Senior Member

03-01-2013

It should be made worth it, but it isnt even close to being made worth it.

E is a slow that goes up in effectiveness per level.
E has a lower energy cost and can be used wrecklessly to harrass or kill.
E is on half the CD.
E bears no reduction in damage for using it on multiple people.

They would have to cut 1/2 of E's damage and put it into Q before you would want to level them in a different order. Simply because your getting more damage out of E in a fight due to being able to use it more often (lower cd, lower energy cost) with lower risk of missing, AND its your only way to keep someone from running away, so you want to be able to perma slow your opponents and higher levels of E is more slowing.

EDIT" oh ya right, it should be made worth it because its cool. And the most interesting mechanic is making clones all throw shurikens at someone. Its fun and rewarding. E is boring.

to put that into more detail. E is just a less interesting version of skarners Q. A spammable AE damaging slow. We've seen AE spammable attacks. While Q is a skill shot, its synergy with landing multiples is fun. I think (yes this might be op) a better way to increase desire to raise Q would be to lower the reduction it gets from multiple shurkien landing on the same target. Hell its not always easy to land 2 or 3 at the same time lets see some real pay off for it.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Here's a question: why don't you think it should be made worth it?
Part of it is the playstyle; I really like the mid range steady chipping-away and easier farm that Shadow Slash gives, a lot of assassins are about the high-risk execution of their combos themselves and having an assassin who is dependable for damage but needs to engage at the right time is an interesting difference IMO.

He would really need significant kit work to make Q max the ideal viable firstmax spell. He already manages 2 extremely situational spells in Living Shadow and Death Mark, and frankly loading the burden of having to hit multiple line-skillshots at once on top of that is just overkill. He'd need to be made a lot less conditional in his ult and/or lose a lot of the trickiness on his normal shadow, and this would reduce a lot of his uniqueness IMO. This is of course, on top of the fact that there is basically no situation where you want to use his Living Shadow with ult clone up because removing your escape spell for 50% more of Q base on one cast is so not worth it it's not even funny.

That said, I'd have to think about whether I like how ridiculously hard countered Zed is by Zhonyas and QSS (it's worse than Malz really =/) and if there was a way to preserve E maxing and the steady midrange chunk style while fixing this.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Here's a question: why don't you think it should be made worth it?
Probably because Q is relatively such a bad ability, that to make it "worth it" you are going to end up actually gutting Zed in other areas.

WER is the core of his kit and combos - he can chase, kite, escape, juke with a combination/flow of these. Q is a situational energy dump at that just converts energy into damage when you absolutely have no other choice but to cast it (i.e. die before spending your energy or target out of range). But, worst of all, Q is boring.

He already has ranged harass, AoE damage, and clear with his WE. Q feels completely redundant and a waste of a fun ability slot. If you are going give incentive to use it, do it somehow with a measure of redesigning what the ability actually does.


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Intruder1

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Thanks for jungle zed nerf


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

03-01-2013

As far as a Q redesign, I'd look at making it only hit the first target it runs into, amping the damage some (after fixing E), then giving it a really cool hit the same target effect like renewing all shadows durations or ministunning the target or something. Perhaps 0.5s stun per shuriken after the first? That way there's some reason to consider putting out a second clone with ult up and he actually has the final tool he needs to do his job. I'd even take a significant slow nerf or removal for that, he really needs it.


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Zinwrath

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
As far as a Q redesign, I'd look at making it only hit the first target it runs into, amping the damage some (after fixing E), then giving it a really cool hit the same target effect like renewing all shadows durations or ministunning the target or something. Perhaps 0.5s stun per shuriken after the first? That way there's some reason to consider putting out a second clone with ult up and he actually has the final tool he needs to do his job. I'd even take a significant slow nerf or removal for that, he really needs it.
The problem is hes actually very strong right now. I like where your going with it though. Putting more power and incentive into the Q would help make you want to use it. But as it sits right now this nerf is nothing more than a minor number tweak. i dont see it hurting his gameplay that much. people are just over reacting because most people think he's already weak.


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Tenjin

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Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by XuWarrior View Post
Because Q sux , ADMIT THAT .

To mutch energy
He might not admit that, but he was maxing e w q when i saw him streaming... Phreak building a case against himself.