Toxic Behavior is RIOT's Fault

First Riot Post
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atsmith893

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareba View Post
You have said that you don't want to implement a role call system because it will stifle the meta and discourage innovation. The problem I see is that this is already occurring. The drive to innovate is fed by the desire to win. In ranked queues players are already crucified for picking a champion that goes against the meta. If you pick top lane vayne, your team is call gg before you even get to the loading screen. This may be a fallacy, but it seems to me that the meta IS what is stifling innovation. And because there is no innovation there is no change in the meta. And the cycle continues.

If you can accept that barring some major changes, the meta is top, ap mid, jungle, ADC and support, then why not implement a role call system?

Further hindering innovation is power creep. Take Black Cleaver. When preseason 3 debuted the new cleaver certainly changes the meta. You had AD bruisers in mid lane! But it was not to last, the new black cleaver was too powerful and had to be nerfed.

Power creep changes the meta. Balance stabilizes it. For the meta to change something else has to change.

It seems this thread has been somewhat sidetracked into the suggestion of a role calling system... Not to further sidetrack us, but with the communities help I came up with what I felt was a pretty good role calling system:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?t=1662320&

I see morello has already commented several times to this point, but perhaps what the some people are saying may be better articulated in that older thread. Obviously feel free to take a look at it and provide suggestions/alternatives there.

The big difference is rather than calling a lane you would be calling roles riot has already defined, like ad carry, tank, ect. Again, better articulated in that article.


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darkjak

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Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notalent13 View Post
Considering 95% of people never get banned.

No, its your fault if your banned. Especially since raging almost always simply makes everything worse in a bad game, I've even tried to get the enemy team raging at each other on purpose since I know that basically ruins any chance they have at winning.
You do realize that most the people that are getting banned are those that speak up about the toxic behavior going on in games?

The tribunal is utterly flawed in that it can only prosecute those that are using the chat function to voice their concerns. And if you think the chat function is only there to make small chat, you are doing it wrong.

But my point is, most of the people getting banned aren't the ones causing loses, many games being lost are from a lack of cooperation or players who don't work well with others. And more often than not, it is these players that slide through the tribunal because a chat log and k/d ratio will tell you absolutely nothing.

Saying only 5% of players are toxic is an understatement beyond belief. Everyone will act out in their own way, some are passive aggressive and will continue getting away with it.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjak View Post
You do realize that most the people that are getting banned are those that speak up about the toxic behavior going on in games?

The tribunal is utterly flawed in that it can only prosecute those that are using the chat function to voice their concerns. And if you think the chat function is only there to make small chat, you are doing it wrong.

But my point is, most of the people getting banned aren't the ones causing loses, many games being lost are from a lack of cooperation or players who don't work well with others. And more often than not, it is these players that slide through the tribunal because a chat log and k/d ratio will tell you absolutely nothing.

Saying only 5% of players are toxic is an understatement beyond belief. Everyone will act out in their own way, some are passive aggressive and will continue getting away with it.
No, it can do far more than that. We see what builds people make as well and what their number of deaths is. If someone is building five zeals and has 20 deaths but doesn't say a word in the chat, it's still easy to see what they are doing. Causing a loss isn't what most people seem to get punished for- it's making the game unpleasant that gets them.


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Nasdrovia499

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancer View Post
I really think the problem is us. I know I've talked some **** when I've played a losing game, but it's not because of how match-making works. It's because I'm a stubborn bastard who can't acknowledge my own mistakes.

Any MOBA is going to have insane psychotic rage-a-holics. I don't see how to get past it, you're pitting ten testosterone fueled boy against each other while they hide behind their keyboards. Someone's got to lose, and testosterone fueled boys don't like losing.
No one sees how to get past it, because that's how it is and should be. Riot is trying to force players to behave in unnatural ways. Like many other people, I've been raised decently I think, and I wouldn't intentionally hurt someone for no reason; however, I've also been taught pride and a sense of justice. When a "stubborn bastard who doesn't acknowledge his mistakes" blames and/or insults me, I'm bound to answer.

It's not a matter of testosterone, of "winning over the internet" or other cr@p like the overused D-K effect. It's a simple matter of pride, and the way I was raised, the way I am - it's also the exact same way I would react to someone threatening, assaulting or insulting me in the street.

Riot wants people to change such behaviors for the sake of "reducing the toxicity in game", and tells us it's not ok to retaliate to harrassement. This is such an utopian expectation, so far from reality and regular behaviors, that I cant understand how Riot expects it to work - if they even do. The simple fact is that, by Riot's definition, human interactions are toxic sometimes, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Obviously some measures against heavy griefers should exist, but I think the tribunal as a whole and the strong policy enforced by Riot even on forums to "protect the children from bad words" was a huge mistake.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-28-2013
24 of 25 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjak View Post
You do realize that most the people that are getting banned are those that speak up about the toxic behavior going on in games?

The tribunal is utterly flawed in that it can only prosecute those that are using the chat function to voice their concerns. And if you think the chat function is only there to make small chat, you are doing it wrong.

But my point is, most of the people getting banned aren't the ones causing loses, many games being lost are from a lack of cooperation or players who don't work well with others. And more often than not, it is these players that slide through the tribunal because a chat log and k/d ratio will tell you absolutely nothing.

Saying only 5% of players are toxic is an understatement beyond belief. Everyone will act out in their own way, some are passive aggressive and will continue getting away with it.
Can you support this claim? If there was evidence of this being true, we'd view this as a massive issue.


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Nasdrovia499

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xulsigae View Post
No, it can do far more than that. We see what builds people make as well and what their number of deaths is. If someone is building five zeals and has 20 deaths but doesn't say a word in the chat, it's still easy to see what they are doing. Causing a loss isn't what most people seem to get punished for- it's making the game unpleasant that gets them.
Many people sell their items at the end of a game, especially stomps, and/or buy troll items for fun just before the nexus blows. There's no way you can see that.
With 20 deaths you're not taking risks, but what if he is 0/5/0 ? 0/8/1 ? 0/12/3 ? 0/14/1 ? Where exactly do you draw the line between "oh, he's probably just unskilled / had a bad game / the opponents snowballed" and "wow, this guy feeds on purpose" ?


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-28-2013
25 of 25 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by igetlifted View Post
I think that the main topic of what OP was trying to get across has disappeared with the myriad of ridiculous posts and complaints that are being thrown your way. The majority of the community backs you Riot on the stance that we should be held accountable for our actions. I agree; but their has got to be a way to assist us with that process. Many of us try to do right and many of us stick to Riots "code of ethics." The problem is not in the community and its toxic players. The problem lies in the choices made at champion select. The game can easily be decided by how the very beginning starts. This gives toxic players too much power. Power that no one should have. The power to force the issue and force others to bend to their will...whether it be from compromise or otherwise. Implementing a system that would take away this power would be the best for all of us. Yes it hampers a little of our ability to make choices but lets face it. A person is smart and can make rash decisions. A mob of people...not so much.

Is it impossible of me to ask for a trial ranked queue where you are able to choose your role prior to entering the game. Or be able to enter a lobby before the match that lets you talk before the game starts so that you can all be on the same page? Teamwork is so crucial in this game and when the game starts off with raging and threats you know that teamwork literally went out the door.
Agreed here - and that's something we are committed to fixing. We just don't want to speak about how until we've done our own due diligence.


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Nbur

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed here - and that's something we are committed to fixing. We just don't want to speak about how until we've done our own due diligence.
why cant you just tell everyone this from the start...

you wouldnt have 200 topics a day on it for the last week or two... you wouldnt have your own reds butting heads with the community for what now appears to be no real reason.

just inform us, tell us what some of the ideas are down the road. Its hard sitting in the dark wondering if a game i actually like is going to turn into another diablo III

that statement right there is enough for most of the community to know that the riot team has listened to what were asking for. Acknowledgement of a less than ideal situation.... as long as we agree its not where we want it ... we know that you guys will do something to fix it.


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Sexual Innuendo

Senior Member

02-28-2013

These last few posts are excellent. We ARE being put in some unnatural situations, or a better way to say it is situations that make team in-fighting and conflict highly probable. Many teams start off on the wrong foot, not because people are bad, but because the situation is unclear and makes you choose between doing what you want and being polite to others. There's no way to do both.

It's just like my example of the first class airline: What if first class seats were first-come, first-serve. I think you'd quickly see the ugliness in all people. And when some punk kid pushes an old lady over to get to the front of the line, you can either be quiet and report him, or you can give him a piece of your mind. I don't know if I'd fault you either way.

There's truly no way to do what you want AND be polite, so you make a decision every game. Do I play mid when I want to play mid because this is a video game and I come here to relax? Or do I yield to every alpha personality and take the least desirable spot every single game? Do I mix it up? That means I'm a royal jerk in half my games and a gentleman in the other.

So all the Riot posts and many player posts telling us to just play every role and try to make the best of trolls, I have one reply: Why? I'm a gamer because it's fun, sometimes relaxing, and sometimes intense/thrilling. I'm polite to people in my every day life. I let old ladies go ahead of me in grocery stores and I'm well versed in office etiquette. So when it comes to who gets to play the ADC in my solo queue normal game, why the heck should it not be me?


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igetlifted

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed here - and that's something we are committed to fixing. We just don't want to speak about how until we've done our own due diligence.
Thanks Morello! I think we all just want a bone thrown our way. Maybe have Lyte get on the forums and make a statement to pacify the masses! I know it takes time to implement so much and i know that your plates are full especially with the way League has exploded over the past year in terms of popularity. Keep up the good work and though at times we may disagree the community does back you Riot. Thanks for taking the time to respond to the rants and raves.