Toxic Behavior is RIOT's Fault

First Riot Post
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Morello

Lead Designer

02-27-2013
18 of 25 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaTeR aBuSeR View Post
but morello ur confusing balance and skill. pros can carry with anyone so trying to say it can be done doesnt mean its balanced. the question is now do u balance from what the pros can do or the average player
I think you are confusing balance and skill. If it's good enough to beat the very best players and teams in the world, then it's viable - by definition. It doesn't mean it's the best pick (a weird expectation of what people think balanced is) but it means it has a time, place and specialty of some kind that is usable, and if you play and master that champion, you can be successful in League.

Since players make tons of mistakes in most normal games, you can maximize this effect if you desire to.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-27-2013
19 of 25 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverLaxx View Post
Your assumption is that because something that was relatively unused gets picked up and wins a game, then maybe the players have been missing something.

This is false.

What's really happening here is a lack of exposure. When something is practically ignored for awhile, you start to forget the little things about them. Exactly how much burst Xerath can put out tends to be one of those things, and he ends up killing you at 6. He does this 3 or 4 times in various lanes and you reach the point where it no longer matters what your AP champion is because it's fed, built the right items to kill things even faster, and you just can't keep up anymore. In a team with coordination, this just becomes even more true because full-out diving the fed AP becomes next to suicidal.

If you want a more extreme example, look at some of the attention Karma has been gaining recently. Karma was always in her optimal position on a bruiser team that's building lots of HP. Guess what the meta is right now? Karma still needs work, but she's currently enjoying a metagame that plays directly into her strengths and her lack of play prior to this has people completely underestimating her ability to "carry" a team of bruisers, especially if she can hover around 40% HP safely.

While this really has nothing to do with the actual thread at hand, I felt I had to point this out. One of my major contentions with you is that you seem to put too much weight on balance direction/concerns based on one pro tournament or even one game.

Unfortunately, I don't really have anything to say about this thread's topic beyond what's already been said.
This is definitely a factor - it's the power of non-top-tier characters in a lot of fighting games too.

Although, I will say I think this is from a strange expectation that balanced = anything can be picked in any situation and be successful, which is not true nor desirable. I think the LCS pick shows that there's at least a place for the character in League, though.


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Iratus

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Senior Member

02-27-2013

Morello, you're not S2 Diamond. Turn that badge off.


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Ericxz

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Everybody likes cake. I can bribe toxic players to be good cake. The solutions to toxic behavior is cake. See if you bribe toxic players with cake if they be good they will be good. Cake will solve anything. Cake wins everytime.


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Mimieh

Member

02-27-2013

No Morello, players already know you always use that argument

When you nerfed tryndamere to the ground when he was arguably strong with the changes to masteries in S2 you used to say: "No, tryndamere is still good because there's a 2600 elo dude that succeeds with him as a jungler" I think it was h4ckerv2 the name

now you do the same to xerath, what about you give factual evidence instead of relying on what pro players pick, because that's all you do.


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Suda

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Hey Morello I bet you can beat trollshotGG solo top.


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Suda

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimieh View Post
No Morello, players already know you always use that argument

When you nerfed tryndamere to the ground when he was a bit strong with the changes to masteries in S2 you used to say: "No, tryndamere is good because there's a 2600 elo dude that succeeds with him as a jungler" I think it was h4ckerv2 the name

now you do the same to xerath, what about you give factual evidence instead of relying on what pro players pick, because that's all you do.
Yea but at our elo we dont even play the game correctly so...


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is definitely a factor - it's the power of non-top-tier characters in a lot of fighting games too.

Although, I will say I think this is from a strange expectation that balanced = anything can be picked in any situation and be successful, which is not true nor desirable. I think the LCS pick shows that there's at least a place for the character in League, though.
If that's the case, why are some champions picked in any situation and become successful? I think the reason people think that's the case is because that's what most of solo que is; team comps aren't really a thing, so they pick champions that 'counter' their lane opponent and put little to no thought into team comp.

So while this may not be desirable or true, it's how it is in solo que, and that's amongst the most popular way people play this game. Pro players, to be blunt, don't matter.


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ep pe ep pe

Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
They do - it's especially gotten worse as the internet has gotten older. The difference is you have to try to work with those people in League. In other games, ignoring is much easier.

As someone that Mudded through the 90's, got his 'MMO' start on what was largely considered the first MMO to exist (Subspace)..

Your bolded statement is so ridiculous and wrong I can't even fathom how someone with your experience even said it Morello.

Peoples responses to it has gotten worse, community managers censoring of it and authoritarian attempts at controlling it has gotten worse. The smack talk has stayed the same.

The difference is that the actions of the communities (White Knights, Developers, et al.) have validated it until it actually means something. 10 years ago if I dominate someone in a game, the developer gave me a way to develop macros and messages to taunt them and gloat afterwards. If I called them a noob and laughed publicly and went "GG scrub" after killing them every time... You know what? Nothing happened to rectify my behaviour, that player simply picked themselves up and attempted to improve or kill me in another way.

I appreciate the Riot posts on this thread, but you can only dodge the dodgeball here so much.

Smack talk on the internet hasn't gotten worse. Just the way you respond to it and validate it as a 'problem' has.


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Iratus

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Senior Member

02-27-2013

I actual prefer personal choice over a team comp because I favor DotA style gameplay over heavy team-based gameplay. Individual skill and success in turn leads to team success, which is a much better model than the current one of LoL of "hope your team doesn't feed so you can carry late game."

You get a feeder in DotA, they're just useless and your team isn't too screwed so long as you're doing okay. I've done Axe casually snagging triple kills and not even dropping below half HP because of how fed I was by jungling and punishing the enemy team. Meanwhile bot lane decided to feed Faceless Void 5 times. Was fun in the end cause he was the only real threat.

You get a feeder in LoL your team is completely SCREWED because if it's top lane, you now have a paintrain diving your carry every fight, if it was mid you've got a high burst assassin instagibbing your carry every fight, or if it was bot lane, your team now has to deal with a fed carry who melts everyone without breaking a sweat.