Toxic Behavior is RIOT's Fault

First Riot Post
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Sexual Innuendo

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumdingeRll View Post
I think in order to fix these kinds of situations riot needs to have placement matches for a given role, mid, top, adc, jungle, support. If it has really gotten to that point, you would need a total number of wins to actually be able to play that role in "RANKED"

Is this idea stupid and pointless? yes absolutely! but at this point is the actions of players right now any less pointless and stupid?

People dont understand the value of someone else's words in que when they say mid, or top. So why not at least back it up, with a pointless system already implemented for moving up in ranks.
So we're discussing two different things now. You're saying people should have tryouts to prove they're good at a certain role. That's an impossible feat and I don't think it could happen.

Many of us aren't worried about people sucking at a role, we're more worried about minimizing the champ-select problem where multiple people want the same role and we each feel we deserve to play what we want. There should be a better way.


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Shiister

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Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexual Innuendo View Post

Many of us aren't worried about people sucking at a role, we're more worried about minimizing the champ-select problem where multiple people want the same role and we each feel we deserve to play what we want. There should be a better way.
Suggest ways then. Your suggestion have to be fair for all players having a equal chance of getting the role they want. 1 idea I can think of is clicking options label after the roles then matching people together by other factors, but how long would wait be?


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexual Innuendo View Post
So we're discussing two different things now. You're saying people should have tryouts to prove they're good at a certain role. That's an impossible feat and I don't think it could happen.

Many of us aren't worried about people sucking at a role, we're more worried about minimizing the champ-select problem where multiple people want the same role and we each feel we deserve to play what we want. There should be a better way.
Essence of the issue of democracy- how to give the majority power without letting the minority get trampled.


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Instalockers

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Another interesting dilemma is that Ranked should maximize enjoyment (getting to play what you want) also that Ranked is for trying your hardest to win. I think there's a natural misalignment there.

Again, I'm not saying there's not an issue here for us to work on (and we're not ignoring it), but I think the expectations of Ranked need to be realistic as well.
There's gotta be some way we can please the players who want to play a certain role in the meta, those players who want to play non-meta and those players who want to have the challenge of being given a random role to fulfill while keeping them all from crashing into eachother and ruining the game for eachother. This both for Ranked and Normal. As of now I have my 5 macro-keys set to write and enter "Top.", "Jungle.", "Mid.", "Bot ADC." and "Bot Support." and before I press "Accept" when "Match Found" comes up, I ready myself with a finger on the key and the mouse ready to press the chat-box and I still end up duo-topping with some other bastard while the ADC is alone in bot begging for help. Is this how you wanted it to be? That's how it is for me and my friends.

This is why I won't play much ranked.

I've been spending a lot of time for someone who's not hired at Riot trying to figure out how to solve this, as it is preventing me from playing LoL as much as I'd like at the moment. It's been bothering me so extremely that it's made me rage and fall to tears during games. I've made a total of three threads concerning this issue each of them time-consuming and answering the comments were dizzying, giving me headaches and causing me to cold-sweat.

Please find a solution, I'm desperate.


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Iratus

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Senior Member

02-27-2013

After reading all the red posts, I'm taking this away from the thread:

Riot devs who are not on the team this would cover, are the ones who are reading this thread but still offering only 'personal opinion' and, not to be rude, regurgitated script/practiced replies that only seem to dance around the subject matter, much like how you ask what happened when you were banned from the tribunal (only to get "YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DID >" as your response back from Riot Support, before these new report cards or whatever).

I'm not trying to sass or anything but it's really sad that there isn't more done to improve the game and its matchmaking from the role selection standpoint. Using the WoW example with dungeon/raid finder, yes it takes forever to get a queue to pop with a DPS slot. That doesn't mean I don't still queue. You've seen pros stream games; They sit in queue anywhere from 30 seconds to 20 minutes waiting for a match. I have no issue queuing up with all slots checked, because I can play all roles in LoL. I like Support and Jungle roles most of all because I can do a lot to help the team win their lanes and control objectives. What doesn't help is when I get a carry who has a stick up his ass because I ward differently than he might want. For example, I start with 1 ward, 1 pot, and the 2 pieces for a Philo stone and head to lane. I ward one of the bushes and just stay in position to defend the carry in case of a jungler, but nine times out of ten the idiot refuses to play more passively or defensively, and goes and feeds first blood then blames me, his support, because he didn't listen to how I play bot lane strategy. People who get roles they want feel entitled to curse out ANYONE who dares say they're doing something wrong, or refuse to allow them to play the exact way that they want to play.

On to the LoLking argument.

If I look up a player and they have a medicore score in a role they want, fine. If I look up another player on the team and they have an INCREDIBLE success rate on the role that they also want (AD Carry for example), then I have every right to put more faith into the player who has a very low death count and high gold income compared to the 2:1 KDA with moderate gold income. The player with less deaths and higher gold is clearly more capable at that role. I will push for that player to get that role. There is nothing wrong with saying "No, this person has a better record, and he/she should get the role." I don't judge people on their KDA as a whole. I judge based on their deaths. If you're dying as an AD Carry, one of two reasons is why:

A) You're bad at positioning and get caught.
B) You had a bad team who doesn't understand how to adequately position and protect their DPS.

Chances are I'll assume A because generally it's safer to err on the side of caution and see players as worse than what they are, purely out of respect for the probability so wonderfully reiterated 500 times by people who say Elo Hell does not exist (44% to 56% troll chance on your team vs. their team). No matter how much you want it, no matter how much you wish it to be true, Riot, nobody in their right mind would leave something like that to chance if able. And that's why looking someone up for their roll on LoLking is not toxic, nor is it detrimental to player experience. If I get LoLking'd and told "u r bad mid" and I look the other person up and they have a better record? Sure. Have at it. I could give a damn about what lane I go to so long as the lane wins. That's why I play Support and Jungle mostly because my old days as Top and Mid are long passed thanks to the major changes with S3. I quit Mid because AP role is getting phased out but lets not talk about that right now.

tl;dr: Riot, sorry, but role check and longer queue times IS a viable and valid option to fix issues with players raging at each other. Especially if they wind up losing their lane or just plain failing miserably and there was someone else who wanted the lane. You can't expect everyone to be calm and collected when they're put under stress. Codkiddie reactions are bound to happen purely due to how the human psyche functions.

What you want to see:

Quote:
"I really want to top lane, but I'll let you have it. I hope you do well!"
(Proceeds to feed HORRENDOUSLY.)
"Awww, its okay. Next time I'll top. Don't worry, it's only a game! We're here to have fun! ^_^"
What you will actually see(Mild):
Quote:
I wanted top but he took it before me. I guess I'll do something else so he doesn't feed and afk. Stupid kid.
(Top lane gives up First Blood, without jungler gank)
WTF? Stupid baddie how do you lose FB with no gank and flash?
(Top lane gives up 3 more kills, two of which Mid roams for to snag extra income while the wave is pushed)
WTF! OMG THIS GUY SUCKS! REPORT FEEDER!
What really happens:
Quote:
A: top or i feed
B: fk u im fp im top
A: kk gonna feed then lol nub
C: wtf just go mid or something
A: naw he wants to lose lol thats why he wont let me top
D: Excuse me, but I checked both your LoLking history and you're both horrible at playing top lane.
A: lol
B: lol scrub stfu
E: o.o Can I just jungle?
D: Sure, I'll go mid.
C: fk i just picked lb wtf nub
D: Oh, kay, I'll support.
Quote:
Player A takes Revive and Teleport. Starts boots.

MINIONS HAVE SPAWNED!

Player A runs at the enemy towers.

FIRST BLOOD!
Quote:
B[All]: report A he troll
A[All]: lol i called top first but he wants to lose so keep going mid for money


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-27-2013
16 of 25 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisXIViral View Post
I think this is the fundamental problem with your standpoint. You'd rather count on changing people's behavior than do something significant about the system that makes them fight.

Take away or fix the problems that are making people fight, and they have less of a reason to fight. The people who are going to be dicks will still be dicks, but the people who are generally nicer people won't feel as frustrated. And then you don't have to try and convince people to swallow their anger.

You guys have millions of people playing your game. The approach toward "fixing behavior" alone is not going to be an effective one, period. The tribunal has made the social experience worse, if anything. It may have gotten rid of some trolls, but it's also created new ones.
I mentioned we are working to fix this this, so we agree there, but you can't deny human nature as a factor, nor can you fix that element. You can only adjust for its existence.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-27-2013
17 of 25 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
Could you explain why Lux is basically better than xerath on nearly all fronts? she might not have the raw damage, but she has "enough" damage because her utility is pretty good for her team and the ability to fish with her snares.

Xerath, Ziggs, Brand, and Viktor all kinda share the problem where "great, i have damage, but it's just not "enough".
Hmm, that Xerath carry in LCS today. :P

Just saying - there's so much being limited by assumptions on balance.


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WaTeR aBuSeR

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Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Hmm, that Xerath carry in LCS today. :P

Just saying - there's so much being limited by assumptions on balance.
but morello ur confusing balance and skill. pros can carry with anyone so trying to say it can be done doesnt mean its balanced. the question is now do u balance from what the pros can do or the average player

Btw I have lost 3 games in a row first one to a dcer and second two to trolls. this new league system has made ranked way more stressful and harder to rank. being at 94 point only to drop down below 50 because i win one lose one then get a troll loss makes it so hard to calculate my true ranking. even winning 3/4 matches doesnt increase ranking because of the dc losses and troll losses. whereas my friend who was around the same rank as be has gone up several divisions because he gets good teams. he told me the other day he has only had one troll game in ranked this season of about 100 games. solo/duo q needs a serious overhaul to be considered worthwhile


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IS1bf9b2d7e61bcf

Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I mentioned we are working to fix this this, so we agree there, but you can't deny human nature as a factor, nor can you fix that element. You can only adjust for its existence.
They why spend time creating a system that attempts to manipulate people with farcical negative consequences to their actions?

Tribunal has the most impact on: People with bad luck, there is very little a person can do once their team starts on the "you're a feeder" bandwagon, defend yourself and get punished, or apologize and get punished for "admitting" you fed.

Tribunal has the least impact on: True trolls, they just log on to the next account.

You need to create consequences for the bullies who currently control your tribunal system.


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ArmedRagnarok

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaTeR aBuSeR View Post
but morello ur confusing balance and skill. pros can carry with anyone so trying to say it can be done doesnt mean its balanced. the question is now do u balance from what the pros can do or the average player
This.