Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-17-2010
89 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargaw View Post
What about making it like katarinaąs shunpo or better akali's ulti?

You can only flash to enemies, so you couldn't use it to save your ass.
We tested that and no one liked it. Oh well.

Going to try moving it to a boot next... Zileas' Slippers of Majesty

Basic boots + ~1200g = movement 2 + once every 3 or 4 mins, flash active

give or take


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The Hav

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Excellent insight, Zileas. You remain to be my favorite RIOTer.

Edit: Let's divert this thread into a slippers one again.


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SuzumeStjohn

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Torment is not confusing. "apply me first, then DPS" -- that is the use of the skill. Simple!
But you just said if you changed it to the way Swain's power worked it would be 'confused'. Your wording. So how is Swain's simple then? I don't understand how you can have it both ways, and say that each of them is simple, and each of them is too complicated for players to understand.


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Aqualisk

Senior Member

10-17-2010

How do you feel about stealth?

In my opinion stealth characters are the epitome of anti-fun. Just their presence changes the game entirely. It forces players to spend a lot extra gold to counter them.

For example: If the enemy team has a lot of AD carries, a player can purchase health and armor to counter them. This effect persists and is useful in nearly every facet of the game.

If the enemy team has stealthers in order to counter them a player must purchase wards that are 60g more than normal wards. (timed resource) Or they must purchase an oracle elixir. (perishable at 400g). Both of these are extra drains that a team must pay just because of champion selection. That doesn't seem like good design to me.

Also, in general, the entire stealth character design is anti-fun. Their whole stick is to either kill you before you can react or escape (Twitch, Shaco) or disable you while they or another character kills you. (Evelynn) Neither of options are rewarding or fun for the other player. Sticking around and dying or trying to run vs a twitch is not fun.

To draw an analogy I think the Rogue playstyle in World of Warcraft is probably greatest example of an anti-fun design ever. Their entire kit is based around defeating a player before they can react (stunlock & Vanish) or giving you lose/lose scenarios. (Evasion & Cloak of Shadows)


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SFSC

Senior Member

10-17-2010

What about Galio's ult? It certainly isn't fun whatsoever for the team playing against him. There's really no avoiding it, it's not a skill-shot so you can't dodge it, everyone is forced to attack him, and then he explodes and everyone dies right there/gets cleaned up by the rest of his team.


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Venguy

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

i agree that LoL's brand stealth isn't my favorite. it's pure invisibility in games like LoL, DotA, and WoW. there's no visual or audio cue. this means the stealth classes have a huge advantage in initiation, but they have to be mediocre in direct encounters, else there won't be a purpose for non-stealthers with similar skillsets. i do like akali and broodmother's stealth mechanics, though.


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Talosea

Junior Member

10-17-2010

One of the big things to learn (currently only really doable by playing all champs extensively) is knowing the range of their attacks/abilities.
Would it be possible to have an indicator on the ui, that shows range in circles around a champ ?

Another thing is the health bars (great design) and shields (somehow counters the great design of the bars and their little boxes. I see someone with 4 boxes, i know they're roughly at 400 hp. Now i try this with mordekaiser or janna, calculate my damage and... they live. guessed wrong on the shield
Would it be possible to let the shield "override " the health bars with their own little boxes in another colour ? That way they would be much more predictable.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-17-2010
90 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzumeStjohn View Post
But you just said if you changed it to the way Swain's power worked it would be 'confused'. Your wording. So how is Swain's simple then? I don't understand how you can have it both ways, and say that each of them is simple, and each of them is too complicated for players to understand.
The old implementation of Torment was very hard to read and understand. Very hard to get a sense for 'how much' it was contributing or not. In those sorts of ambiguous situations, we usually have to make the ability OP to make it 'fun'. When its understood easily, we can be less OP and have it still be fun.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-17-2010
91 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talosea View Post
One of the big things to learn (currently only really doable by playing all champs extensively) is knowing the range of their attacks/abilities.
Would it be possible to have an indicator on the ui, that shows range in circles around a champ ?

Another thing is the health bars (great design) and shields (somehow counters the great design of the bars and their little boxes. I see someone with 4 boxes, i know they're roughly at 400 hp. Now i try this with mordekaiser or janna, calculate my damage and... they live. guessed wrong on the shield
Would it be possible to let the shield "override " the health bars with their own little boxes in another colour ? That way they would be much more predictable.
yes we want to improve shield UI, sortof like the halo shield design UI. Will happen sooner or later.


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SuzumeStjohn

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The old implementation of Torment was very hard to read and understand. Very hard to get a sense for 'how much' it was contributing or not. In those sorts of ambiguous situations, we usually have to make the ability OP to make it 'fun'. When its understood easily, we can be less OP and have it still be fun.
So is Vlad or Swain's power the easy one? And which is the OP one? I don't understand, because you have changed stances on this repeatedly, which is which. I can see how it would be difficult to see 'how much' it is contributing, but if you make the graphics obvious, then it wouldn't be that big of a 'burden of knowledge'.