Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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IS1f1d52ece4eba8be33817

Senior Member

10-17-2010

We all know that best way to counter rupture is to blink away! The further the better!


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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
So if everyone is OP it balances out.

...

This is the same balance strategy employed by the first Starcraft.

...

It is all fairly crazy, but every race gets crazy stuff and this is why Starcraft is a spectator sport.

...

In Starcraft 2, everything has been toned down so fights are far more predictable and fewer surprises happen.

This might be why Dota is a better spectator sport than LoL...
So what you're saying is that in the first game, the balance was incredibly swingy, but Blizzard decided to make the balance in the sequel less swingy based on the lessons they learned from the first game?

Gee, that sounds oddly familiar.

And yeah, seeing a one-sided stompfest might be fun for a spectator. But its not fun.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

10-17-2010

No, it means you can stage great comebacks and killing 20 units with one storm is fun for both sides.

The new system doesn't allow for the player that is behind to come back much at all unless the opponent makes a tactical error.


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10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperStomper View Post
This list cries, CATER TO CASUALS.

Hardcore strategists want every mechanic that forces a reaction from your opponent stuffed into a game. Magic the Gathering has every single anti-fun element he mentioned, yet it's MASSIVELY POPULAR.
Go read every design article by Mark Rosewater. He's the Head Designer for MTG.

Funny story, he says the exact god**** things that Zileas is saying. Especially the part about making mistakes. And yes, MTG is massively popular and it has kept it's popularity by massively toning down anti-fun in every new set.

Counterspells? Good luck finding a non-conditional counter under 4CMC.
Land destruction? See above.
Random discard? What is that I don't even...
Game-winning or incredibly effective two-card combos? lolno
Can't be regenerated? Yeah, right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
No, it means you can stage great comebacks and killing 20 units with one storm is fun for both sides.

The new system doesn't allow for the player that is behind to come back much at all unless the opponent makes a tactical error.
As the person on the losing end of that Storm, I wouldn't find it fun. I would see only anti-fun, because my whole force, or a large portion of it, was just defeated by your Templar casting one spell. That isn't fun. It's humiliating and disheartening.

A close battle where you eek out a victory is about ten times more fun and overall more rewarding.


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Krulewicz

Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Anti-Combo
This one is bad. This is essentially when one ability you have diminishes the effectiveness of another in a frustrating manner.
then wtf is black shield still doing in this game


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Tyrald Grimnod

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krulewicz View Post
then wtf is black shield still doing in this game
Zileas said it in context of abilities on one character, dude.
How does Black Shield interact with Dark Binding, Tormented Soil and Soul Shackles (assuming they're on the same Morgana)? HUH?

[Edit]
Since downvotes came too easily to whose, who didn't read more than one sentence in 'Anti-combo' paragraph of Zileas' post, I care to explain.
One skill not being a combo with another is NOT an anti-combo. One skill being detrimental to the other is. In some cases the fact that you don't see the combo means that it simply isn't the straightforward one.
Dark Binding in no way affects other Morgana's skills. Actually, you can use it after activating Soul Schackles so that no CC thrown in your direction is effective and you can follow enemies further.
Also, it is one of most potent supporting skills, which helps define Morgana's current role in team.


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Nhan Fiction

Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
Dota employs balance by audacity. All of its characters are OP; either they have some crazy damage ult or they can perma stun or teleport gank anywhere or have a 5 second team root (if you thought Amumu was bad...).

So if everyone is OP it balances out.

This is the same balance strategy employed by the first Starcraft. You can rush to cloaked units which, if not scouted, arrive before your opponent can even reveal them. Psionic storm, scourge and reavers do huge damage and can destroy waves of enemies worth ten times their cost. Plague reduces the hp of multiple expensive targets to 1. Corsairs can wipe out stacked air in 2 seconds no matter how many units there are. Tanks do terrible damage to anything on the ground and are almost impossible to kill from the ground without losing an inordinate amount of units. EMP leaves Protoss units with no shields whatsoever. Defilers have a spammable cloud that prevents ranged opponents from attacking in an area (terrans have exactly one melee unit). There are abilities to lock down any mechanical unit for 30 seconds leaving it dead in the water, or to remove multiple enemies from a fight or to destroy units instantly or to block anti-air for a whole minute.

It is all fairly crazy, but every race gets crazy stuff and this is why Starcraft is a spectator sport. If used properly, this crazy stuff is incredibly effective. In Starcraft 2, everything has been toned down so fights are far more predictable and fewer surprises happen.

This might be why Dota is a better spectator sport than LoL...
The fight-fire-with-fire principle is an absurd way of balancing a game. Why not just balance things so that things have reasonable compromises to their power? Honestly, anyone who has half a brain can figure out that the key to winning in DotA is to abuse disables. Stun-lock your opponents to death. When they can't move, they can't fend for themselves. And why is this possible? It is because disables in DotA are just as powerful, if not more powerful than other forms of crowd control. As a result, most good lineups stress picking heroes with, guess what, at least one disable.

I am not saying that LoL's balance at this very moment is completely perfect, as there are definitely some outliers in the current balance scheme (MF, Sona and whatnot). Nevertheless, I like how LoL encourages players to use other types of crowd control to win. Stuns are in the game, but they are quite modest compared to DotA. This is why I will never think about going back to Defense of the Disables.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
Gangplank
  • Parrlay
    • Relies on Critical strike to be effective
      • When it DOES score a critical, it's a very powerful, short cooldown nuke
      • When it DOESN'T score a critical, it's lackluster
  • Raise Morale
    • Only works when allied minions are near
      • When minions ARE near, it gives him a great steroid skill plus the only "deny" ability in the game.
        • Some newbies might have no idea how good a deny can be, nor how much it helps gankplank solo a 2 v 1 lane.
      • When NO minions are near, it's like playing a character with only 3 abilities.
  • Cannon Barrage
    • This move is reliant on actually getting the cannonballs to HIT
      • If a good deal of cannonballs hit, it's a VERY powerful, global AoE skill on reasonable cooldown.
      • Sometimes, NO canonballs hit at all.
  • Grog Soaked Blade
    • Effectively counters healing based characters.
      • When the enemy team is reliant on support and heals, gankplank's passive can screw them over from the get-go.
      • When the enemy team has ZERO heals on it, his passive is essentially just a weak DoT on his standard attacks.

I'm really torn on gangplank, you know.
On the one hand, his reliance on luck makes him unique and, for some people, fun.
On the other hand, a really lucky gangplank is incredibly frustrating to play against, and an unlucky gangplank is pretty much a waste of space on the team.
Luck DOES tend to have a way of evening out, but it's still kinda frustrating in situations where a Gangplank gets incredibly lucky or incredibly unlucky and there's nothing he nor I can do about it.
I'm waiting to see a response about Gangplank and the Non-reliability clause



Also. Ryze's spell flux bouncing back at me and then fizzling off


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NogiWonsza

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Senior Member

10-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrald Grimnod View Post
Zileas said it in context of abilities on one character, dude.
How does Black Shield interact with Dark Binding, Tormented Soil and Soul Shackles (assuming they're on the same Morgana)? HUH?

[Edit]
Since downvotes came too easily to whose, who didn't read more than one sentence in 'Anti-combo' paragraph of Zileas' post, I care to explain.
One skill not being a combo with another is NOT an anti-combo. One skill being detrimental to the other is. In some cases the fact that you don't see the combo means that it simply isn't the straightforward one.
Dark Binding in no way affects other Morgana's skills. Actually, you can use it after activating Soul Schackles so that no CC thrown in your direction is effective and you can follow enemies further.
Also, it is one of most potent supporting skills, which helps define Morgana's current role in team.
it can be understood in two different ways, its not specified that the abilities are on one character - its only said that one of the abilities you have affects another, so u could be playing morgana and having black shield and annoying ever1 on the other team by rendering their abilities useless... and black shield can certainly be considered an anti-combo, come on, it negates every CC possible, including summoner spells which are completely blocked by it (u cant cast exhaust on shielded target), as well as DoT ults, it has insane 1:1 ap ratio and often can totally mess up a burst casters combo


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-17-2010
80 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgedawg View Post
I'm waiting to see a response about Gangplank and the Non-reliability clause



Also. Ryze's spell flux bouncing back at me and then fizzling off
gankplank has issues. I agree. We will psuedorandom him at some point.