Several Nidalee tweaks for PBE to fix the silly balance change =P

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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

02-23-2013

I realize that the scaling defense is typically a bad idea especially since that was Jax's old passive and that's why I lowered the base values and split the scaling between ap on one stat and ad on the other stat. This way you still have to build some kind of defensive stat to fill the hole in your defensive stats but you aren't having to cover 2 holes.

Either way I just hope the current PBE changes don't go through in their current state.


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroSoulreaver View Post
This sounds like a good idea.

I agree, if the problem is the resistance then they should make it situational as they do with other champions.
Generally this seems to be the issue; she has no CC, and if she gets CC'd in turn, she melts pretty easily. The biggest issue right now is that she has enough free armour/MR that she can survive getting hit with 1 CC, then still escape when she's running.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaylnaz View Post
no

nidalee will still be broken after her nerfs because you can't actually do anything to her
As a continuation of the reply to ZeroSoulreaver's comment, the issue isn't that she has fairly high mobility; catching her with a stun is about all that's needed to make her die horrifically. As it stands, though, she has a remarkably high armour/MR boost (30 armour and 43.5 MR at level 18) in kittyform, which is the form she's going to be in when she's trying to pounce away to safety.

This extra boost is pretty high, and means she's got a relatively good chance of surviving a single stun, which is probably long enough for her to get to a wall and pounce over it, which is where the biggest problem lies.

As such, these changes are primarily to make it so that she's less likely to be able to live long enough to make it to that wall to escape, and to make a single CC probably all she needs to die.

However, in melee combat, when she's actually fighting, she's not going to be hit by JUST one CC effect. At that point, she's probably going to be slaughtered because she's in range for every attack the entire enemy team has. In that situation, she probably needs more defensive capacity than she actually has currently, and as such, these changes make her a little more effective when she's in melee, but significantly less effective when trying to run away.

Simply taking power away from her without a strong return, is probably not the wisest decision. Instead, shifting her power more towards the offensive end of the spectrum, and less towards the defensive end, by rewarding her for being aggressive, is probably the best decision overall.


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DarkTundras

Member

02-23-2013

Sounds good on paper, but eh


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagee Prime View Post
I realize that the scaling defense is typically a bad idea especially since that was Jax's old passive and that's why I lowered the base values and split the scaling between ap on one stat and ad on the other stat. This way you still have to build some kind of defensive stat to fill the hole in your defensive stats but you aren't having to cover 2 holes.

Either way I just hope the current PBE changes don't go through in their current state.
Yeah, balance is a tricky thing to work with. Even a minor change can have remarkably drastic unintended consequences, so you really have to think things through on a very meticulous level.

It's not even just as simple as whether the champion's balanced or not. If you give someone an ability that's balanced, but feels weak, even though it may not be weak, it's still not fun to use. This has plagued Trundle considerably, as well as Sona a great deal, as examples.

The PBE changes simply can't go through as is, though. It would practically remove half of her kit (her kittyform abilities) to the point that she can't run effectively with pounce anymore, she can't really risk farming with her AoEs, and she can't use them in group fights due to being far, far too squishy for melee range.

The simple point of the matter is... they nerfed the wrong thing. Yes, it'll have the intended effect they wanted; she won't be as hard to kill when she's running away. Unfortunately, the nerf being put into place will also mean she's far too easy to kill when she's NOT running away, meaning she's down to basically a 2 spell champion; Spear and Heal. Kittyform's almost invalidated, and her traps got nerfed repeatedly awhile ago into being kind of lackluster in most of the situations you'd actually want to use them in.

Having effectively removed 4 spells from her kit is not really that impressive of a balance job, and it simply can't 'go through as is.

Unfortunately, unless someone can come up with a better idea, those changes will go through. Hence why I had to make the post =P


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AK47WOLF

Senior Member

02-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
which leads to her cat form being practically useless in combat due to being too easily killed once she's in melee range,
An AP champion not doing well at melee range...you don't say? Maybe we should give Lux or Brand a billion ar/mr for close encounters.


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Still Eternity

Senior Member

02-23-2013

She doesn't need any Armor or MR bonus at all. Unless you take a huge cooldown hit on her pounce, I will never accept a character that gets free tankiness that also has an extremely low cooldown flash.

Right now Nidalee is Low Risk, High Reward, and it's incredibly annoying to play against.

Removing the Bonus is a step in the right direction. If they give her any buffs in the future, it has to come at the hands of nerfs as well.


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47WOLF View Post
An AP champion not doing well at melee range...you don't say? Maybe we should give Lux or Brand a billion ar/mr for close encounters.
The reason for Lux and Brand not needing Armour and MR is because they aren't melee champions. Go figure. Lux has a root and slow as well as a shield, while Brand has a stun, and neither have abilities that require them to be in melee range to use.

Nidalee, however, has three spells which are only effective in melee range. Hence she kind of needs to be able to survive in melee range.

Let's take a look at some other champions who are AP and melee range!

1: Cho'gath gets up to +900 base health and heals up to 71 life per minion he kills, which goes pretty quicky considering all of his abilities are AoE except for his ultimate.

2: AP Sion gets a remarkably powerful shield to make up for needing to be near an enemy to deal half his damage.

3: Skarner has a fairly strong shield, as well as a heal, and multiple forms of powerful CC.

Lux and Brand don't get the same kind of bonuses to their defenses because they're not supposed to be in melee range in the first place simply because they have no abilities that require them to be in melee range. Please think before trying to compare =P


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still Eternity View Post
She doesn't need any Armor or MR bonus at all. Unless you take a huge cooldown hit on her pounce, I will never accept a character that gets free tankiness that also has an extremely low cooldown flash.

Right now Nidalee is Low Risk, High Reward, and it's incredibly annoying to play against.

Removing the Bonus is a step in the right direction. If they give her any buffs in the future, it has to come at the hands of nerfs as well.
Note that she doesn't really have a low cooldown flash; flash has an effective range of 400 while pounce has a range of about 375 which takes Nidalee's larger hit box into account. Go ahead and try playing nidalee with flash, and test to see if she can jump over the same areas she can flash over. She really can't, and the travel time makes a considerable difference.

The other issue is that Nidalee isn't really that low risk; if she sticks in the back of a fight and chucks spears, she doesn't really risk much, but she doesn't get much either since it's so easy to dodge her spears at that point.

Any time anyone goes into melee range, however, you are subjecting yourself to the full force of the enemy team, as now the entirety of all their damage output, all their CC and all their AoE effects can hit you easily. Any champion that is in melee range absolutely needs some form of survival to be able to be effective in melee range, which is why you see champions such as Sion with a shield and life steal, or Master Yi being able to go untargetable, gain a huge armour/MR boost at will, and go immune to slows, or how Olaf can go immune to CC and has a good life steal boost.

Being in melee range is a dangerous thing, and exceptionally high risk. To claim otherwise, is kind of ridiculous =P


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AK47WOLF

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
Nidalee, however, has three spells which are only effective in melee range. Hence she kind of needs to be able to survive in melee range.
So a 3-second flash in cat form is not enough utility for you to succeed with? You need to be unkillable too?

Oh and for the record. The range of Brand's E puts him in the kill zone of 95% of the champions in LoL, regardless of ranged or melee. Food for thought. Ar/MR nao plz.


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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47WOLF View Post
So a 3-second flash in cat form is not enough utility for you to succeed with? You need to be unkillable too?

Oh and for the record. The range of Brand's E puts him in the kill zone of 95% of the champions in LoL, regardless of ranged or melee. Food for thought. Ar/MR nao plz.
Nobody said she was "unkillable" but you...sounds like someone who doesn't know how to deal with her. Talk about food for thought...