Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattehwubbs View Post
Hope this hasn't already been posted, but is this why you won't implement Blitzcrank's grab to grab allies too, like Pudge used to be able to do? Because the player-base won't be able to use it effectively, therefore creating an Anti-Fun -> Fun to a degree? Or you just moreover afraid of trolls using it in a manner that won't be acceptable for gameplay. This questions always been bugging me Zilean.
They're too worried about griefing potential.


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Intangible

Senior Member

10-15-2010

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Originally Posted by L0CUST View Post
Does wanting to kill a player, and setting up a nice gank.. only to have that player constantly flash/ ghost away fit in one of these categories?
Bro, that is super anti-fun. I hate that


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Slade

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
They're too worried about griefing potential.
Figured. This community is pretty awful.


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2xHero

Senior Member

10-15-2010

On the topic of anti-fun, running through a crapton of CC as Singed to try to fling a volley-spamming Ashe just to have her flash out of range is incredibly unfun. Then, you are standing there in the middle of everyone, having done nothing, and even if you catch the Ashe, she is still too far away for your team to do anything. The same thing happens when playing as a jungler trying an early gank. Most junglers do not have great gap-closing skills or long ranged CC to stop someone who has over-extended to flash right back to their tower - negating the gank.

Another one is Morgana's Black Shield against de-buff and non-bursty mages - even bursty mages since Black Shield kills your burst. Please take a look at this thread.

Another thing I wanted to point out was the conflicted purpose in Tryndamere's mocking shout. The -damage is crippling to an enemy carry, but if you use it early, you might not even benefit from the slow at all.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattehwubbs View Post
Figured. This community is pretty awful.
DotA's wasn't too peachy, but I hardly ever got griefed hehe.


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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Thanks for the post! This explains why some people feel some champions are worth whining about on the forums over others. Escapes are much more satisfying when executed, which makes them that much more notable when the player fails!

The Morgana portrayals are perfect. I'm sad that this usually means the weakening of "skillshot" champions, though.

-Danny
mass banshees!


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SlyGoat

Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
I'd rather be manaless than stunlocked from 100% to 0. And yet, I can barely remember either situation happening in DotA, while I know I'm stunlocked from 100% to 0 pretty much every game in LoL. I realize ganks in LoL don't work without CC but, I'm sorry, designing your entire game around the single least fun game mechanic is an atrocious idea. The only worthwhile counters to being initiated on and CCed to death are proactive rather than reactive, and that's why the gameplay is so slow and defense oriented because once you're hit by something like sion's stun, you're going to be chain CCed and burst down and there's nothing you can do about it except maybe tap cleanse if its absurdly long cooldown happens to be up.


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malifaux

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Thanks for the post, Zileas. I have been wondering about this issue for a while now. But if I may, I'd like to put in my two cents about abilities like Rupture.

For me, what was great about Rupture was not the burden of knowledge aspect, but the fact that the victim can influence the outcome of that ability as much the caster can. You can choose to stand and fight the bloodseeker and even win or you can choose to flee and take the extra damage. Of course, the goal of a good bloodseeker would be to trap the victim into a dilemma with neither outcome being favorable.

Along with Silencer's curse and Axe's battle hunger, these abilities all require some sort of participation from the victim to fully determine their effectiveness. I think this decision making process makes for both fun and interesting mechanics. Of course, skillshots and area denial like Anivia's are great examples of this type of mechanic.

Personally, I would like to see more abilities implemented (especially ults) that aren't just GG stuns or GG aoe nukes.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
I'd rather be manaless than stunlocked from 100% to 0. And yet, I can barely remember either situation happening in DotA, while I know I'm stunlocked from 100% to 0 pretty much every game in LoL. I realize ganks in LoL don't work without CC but, I'm sorry, designing your entire game around the single least fun game mechanic is an atrocious idea. The only worthwhile counters to being initiated on and CCed to death are proactive rather than reactive, and that's why the gameplay is so slow and defense oriented because once you're hit by something like sion's stun, you're going to be chain CCed and burst down and there's nothing you can do about it except maybe tap cleanse if its absurdly long cooldown happens to be up.
Truth. I found it took a while to adjust (after much raging) to speed at which people die in this game, after coming from DotA.

I can't imagine how much harder it must be on people competely new to the genre.


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The Hub

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post

Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
This definitely explains why Wit's End is junk because if it were tuned to actually be effective it might... be anti fun.

Why was it even designed to begin with?
Why hasn't it been remade?