Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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PaperTree

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

I agree with most things on this list +1, but I don't think this is an effective argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
Considering "Fun" is subjective, it shouldn't be taken into account when a hero is in development. I personally enjoy playing shutdown style heroes and feel accomplished if I can prevent the opponent from doing their job(mesmer from GW is a good example of the playstyle). While you may argue that it isn't fun for the opposing champion, I could say that my champion taking damage isn't fun. would that mean that all future champions would do 0 damage? I don't think that the perceived fun level of the champion should be taken into consideration.


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Miles Long

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindae View Post
I think this is a very interesting read, but don't you think some of this is limiting your diversity and originality of champion skills?

I know you've said before that having fun champs is more important than having original champs, and that's great, but after 60 champs and more on the way aren't you afraid of rehashing the same stuff over and over without compromising some of these concepts?

In particular something like "burden of knowledge," "conflicted purpose" and "unclear optimization" can lead to a lot more diversity. Sure, it might cause some disappointing games, but everyone adapts eventually and there's already a fairly sizable learning curve to the game that I don't think having somewhat more complex abilities will exacerbate much.
Couldn't agree more. Very well said.

Anybody who truly enjoys the game they're playing regardless of their own performance on a game to game basis is going to take the time to learn the ins and outs. A relatively new player who gets stomped by Stogie (Bloodseeker) can very easily load up the latest version of DotA, throw up an Allpick, select our blood hungry friend and with just a little bit of reading comprehension discover what spell does what.

I don't find this to be any more roundabout than playing a single player practice game the day of a new patch that introduces *new champion*

And just like in DotA, you don't have to read patch notes to get the latest version of LoL and play it. Your burden of knowledge argument might hold water if it were ever impossible to gather information on either game, either outside it or in it. As it stands, I don't think it will do any competitive game any good to dumb things down to an elementary school level just so every last Tom, **** and Harry is on the same page. That will only lead to an ever growing level of banality.

The notion of something like Rupture being "unfun" is subjective at best. There are a myriad of abilities/spells/mechanics in DotA and LoL alike that any number of people could label as unfun. It's curious that even though Rupture hurts you when you move, there's nothing saying you have to move. Did you know that Stogie is otherwise completely incapable of burst damage after his ult is used? I'm talking baseline, without items being taken into consideration, mind you.

Against smart players, that unfun factor can go either way. A poorly built Stogie will not be able to stand toe to toe against somebody who isn't afraid to stand there and beat him to death. A little bit of knowledge and suddenly the fight can go your way, how about that.

I think in that respect, Rupture is justified and may even be balanced. Shocking!

LoL would do well to have a bit more complexity and diversity.


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Malak al Maut

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10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeves View Post
I enjoyed the gameplay of Priest mana burn in WoW. There was lots of positioning/counter positioning gameplay (don't stand in the open to get gibbed if you're the priest, LoS behind pillars as the victim, interrupt etc), and 3 mana burns didn't leave you oom. Hunters were way worse - 1 shot to drain 15% of your mana, repeat for 1 minute, win.

WC3 had more offensive mana burn in the form of the Demon Hunter. He would kite you for 15 seconds and drain your mana in the process, meaning you couldn't cast spells for 5 minutes. Wait a minute, didn't Zileas work on WC3...
Lead Designer for Frozen Throne... wait - one - **** - minute.


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CuteFluffyBunny

Senior Member

10-15-2010

I remember the first version that bloodseeker was in, I had no idea what his abilities were and I was playing a mage (enigma i think).

I thought the dude was maphacking (his blood scent thing), and I had no idea what the hell was going on when he attacked me (would silence me then rupture so I was screwed either way). You don't really have time to mouse over Debuffs on you when you are running for your life.

Basically I hated that match and bloodseeker.


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KalosCast

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperTree View Post
I agree with most things on this list +1, but I don't think this is an effective argument.



Considering "Fun" is subjective, it shouldn't be considered when in development. I personally enjoy playing shutdown style heroes and feel accomplished if I can prevent the opponent from doing their job. While you may argue that it isn't fun for the opposing champion, I could say that my champion taking damage isn't fun. would that mean that all future champions would do 0 damage? I don't think that the perceived fun level of the champion should be taken into consideration.
Well yes, if we all make up insane and arbitrary definitions of fun, then it would be very difficult for them to balance them all. However, there's a general list of dos and don'ts of game design that players generally like or dislike that can be easily taken into account. Video games have been a popular part of culture for a few decades now, believe it or not, this means that what makes a game successful and enjoyable isn't some fantastic mystery to game developers.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malak al Maut View Post
Lead Designer for Frozen Throne... wait - one - **** - minute.
Is that true?

My god, the heroes in WC3 were SOOO boring lol.

Well... except for Shadow Hunter and Bloodmage. =p

Wards and chain heal = super fun.

And flamestrike = awsomeness.


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Malak al Maut

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Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by L0CUST View Post
Does wanting to kill a player, and setting up a nice gank.. only to have that player constantly flash/ ghost away fit in one of these categories?
Dan Dinh would bait the flash/ghost then come back later because he's pro. ARE YOU PRO!?!11!?eleven


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Barbedwire

Senior Member

10-15-2010

It's not like once a noob dies by moving while debuffed with Rupture. He will do it again next time.

jeebuz.

^^ no seriously I'm glad you're sharing your design philosophies


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Knote

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbedwire View Post
It's not like once a noob dies by moving while debuffed with Rupture. He will do it again next time.

jeebuz.

^^ no seriously I'm glad you're sharing your design philosophies
Only problem with bloodseeker was his silence lasted way too long, and his ult did too much dmg before you could react fast enough to stop hehe. And he had too many passives.

I hardly think a rupture like effect on Nidalee's Trap would be gamebreaking. Would actually mesh pretty well, once people knew that they should stop moving to minimize the dmg, she could get an easy javelin if they was nearby stalking prey.


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Slade

Senior Member

10-15-2010

Hope this hasn't already been posted, but is this why you won't implement Blitzcrank's grab to grab allies too, like Pudge used to be able to do? Because the player-base won't be able to use it effectively, therefore creating an Anti-Fun -> Fun to a degree? Or you just moreover afraid of trolls using it in a manner that won't be acceptable for gameplay. This questions always been bugging me Zilean.