Anyone else a bit dissapointed with Quinn's design?

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DeadXera

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Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly5 View Post
"If you don't like it that's perfectly fine."

This line...is very unprofessional. It's saying, "back off, I have my own style."

The problem with Quinn's design however, is that it is not iconic. This has nothing to do with liking your style or not, its just lackluster designing.

Each champion in League of Legends should convey a full character trope. Darius for instance, great character design (gameplay design is debated), he's clearly your bad-ass no-nonsense-dunkmaster type of guy. He fully conveys this, and there is VERY little overlap between his trope and that of another champion. Lulu is your cute/small mischievous witch-type-with-fairy. When you think of an archetype, you should have no confusion directly linking a character to it.

I believe is was said somewhere before that Syndra or Zyra are examples of characters that could have been done better. This is because...despite the fact that they are "a certain trope," they do not fully work themselves into that trope, and there is a lot of overlap and not a lot of "definition" of their character vs that of similar characters.
The "badass dark/voluptuous/mature/powerful female" trope has already been explored by the likes of Morgana, Zyra, Elise, Syndra, Katarina, Cassiopeia, Diana, Shyvanna, and Leblanc. Sure each of these characters has their "thing" (moon-girl, dragon-girl, plant-girl, spider girl, etc), but when it comes to defining character traits, they are literally all the same character. None of them are memorable/likeable, and I would argue that as a result there is less fandom from the community over their CHARACTERS (not necessarily the champion, but the CHARACTER of the champion).

When I see Quinn, I dont necessarily relate her to Vayne, even though both have a cross-bow type thing.
This is because Vayne is very clearly defined to be this "vampire-hunter/Van Helsing" type. I see her as this dark vigilante kind of character, and she clearly conveys the trope. Her crossbow does not carry her trope, her overall character does.
I dont even relate her to Swain, because Swain too, is very defined. He's your crooked strategist, a win-by-any means cripple. The bird is there, and it adds to his character, but it doesnt carry his trope, his character does.
The character that I most associate with Quinn...is Leona.
This is because all that I've read of your characterization of Quinn...is Leona. Quinn IS Iron Solari Leona with a crossbow and a bird.
All this talk about wearing armor that "gets the job done," not interested in showing off femininity, all of this stuff is Leona.
Sure you can point out Leona's armor is more "form fitting," Leona has long hair, she has high-heels even, but none of those details detract away from Leona's overall character trope: serious-armored woman. Leona's full body armor is character-defining.
To make a character that is -I mean I can just literally replace all references to Quinn with "Leona" and it would make about as much sense- it's just poor design choices in my opinion.

Why do I care? As a fan of the game I understand that the League champion pool cannot be infinite. Eventually production of champions will end. That's why it's very valuable to me as a fan to enjoy champions that are each iconic and unique, each exploring a specific trope. And it's not like we're out of tropes or anything! I can't expect myself to find every character top of the line trope-defined such that I am appeased, but there should definitely be more attention to this matter.
The way I see it so far, Quinn looks like a cookie-cutter copy of Leona's character, with some new duds. Similar to how Syndra is a cookie-cutter copy of any of those other "voluptuous"-power-females that I referenced earlier.

So don't say "if you don't like it that's perfectly fine."
It should very much concern you if there is talk from the community of not liking it. At the end of the day I think Quinn will turn out great, and will be a fun character, I have few doubts to this. But, by creating her, it's stepping on the character definition of Leona, and diluting what made Leona special. With future champions I feel like there should be an effort to avoid this than saying "that's perfectly fine."

Edit- This is in direct response to IronStylus' comment.
However, even in considering the other preview material, where she's more in the direction of a "forest-batman" character, I feel that she lacks character-defining.
I understand that I have not seen the final product. I'm just commenting off of what was posted.
I would like to point you to a morello post (too lazy to find it, but he's made said quote like 80 times)

(paraphrasing) "we make every champion for someone, not for everyone." It's obvious that you aren't the someone who Quinn was made for. IronStylus says he's cool with that. He's not upset if you yourself aren't tripping over yourself with glee. He's comfortable in the product he made, and that's cool. He did his best, and there's going to be people (myself included) who adore the work he's produced. Other's won't like it as much, and that's cool too. They'll make some champs for you too, don't worry.

(Example, I really didn't have any feelz for cait when she came out, or volibear, or JarvanIV. I didn't hate on their designers for it, I just accepted that they weren't my kind of champs, and waited for the next one I'd like)


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WhenGiantsFall

Junior Member

02-13-2013

Quinn looks amazing, you guys are doing a great job at Riot! @Ironstylus


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DatsaBootyHole

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Yep. She's a ranger first. Not a woman first.

Place woman in traditional male creative space and there you go.
You need to choose your words with a bit more care. This is coming off as a tad ignorant.

ALL WOMEN ARE WOMEN FIRST.

A woman doesn't need to look like a man to be dominant in a "male creative space."

She could be wearing a bikini with big blonde hair with D-cups and you would still have to respect her because that is her choice. Like, congrats on making an androgynous female champion. But if this is coming from some repressed misogynist instinct then I really do not want / appreciate it.

If you TRULY want to challenge convention where are the more ethnic champions?


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Chilly5

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadXera View Post
I would like to point you to a morello post (too lazy to find it, but he's made said quote like 80 times)

(paraphrasing) "we make every champion for someone, not for everyone." It's obvious that you aren't the someone who Quinn was made for. IronStylus says he's cool with that. He's not upset if you yourself aren't tripping over yourself with glee. He's comfortable in the product he made, and that's cool. He did his best, and there's going to be people (myself included) who adore the work he's produced. Other's won't like it as much, and that's cool too. They'll make some champs for you too, don't worry.

(Example, I really didn't have any feelz for cait when she came out, or volibear, or JarvanIV. I didn't hate on their designers for it, I just accepted that they weren't my kind of champs, and waited for the next one I'd like)
So...
...I actually like Quinn. I think she's totally awesome and I'll definitely get her.

but...
...that doesn't mean that I don't think that some of her design choices are poor.
I never stated I did not like Quinn.
What I am trying to say is...when people make points of contention about something like this, the reactive attitude shouldn't be "It's just my style, take it or leave it."

In my post, I try to elucidate what I believe to be the reason why there may be some dislike of Quinn's design.
My argument is that it cuts into the tropes of too many other characters, most notably, Leona.

There is no reason why Ironstylus, or any other artist, would not address this. In fact I believe it's in their creed to try to keep up character diversity.

My post has nothing to do with liking it or not, just design philosophy. I hope its not interpreted the wrong way.


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IBastardI

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I'll tell you what a League of Legends falcon ranger looks like.

It looks like Quinn.
can u change her helmet?... at least to see her hair or something... :c



http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3123844


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ESP

Member

02-13-2013

Oh no, a champ that doesn't appeal to emo teenage single males. :P

Joking aside, I think she's pretty cool. She has a giant shiny bird!


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chumbler

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsaBootyHole View Post
You need to choose your words with a bit more care. This is coming off as a tad ignorant.

ALL WOMEN ARE WOMEN FIRST.

A woman doesn't need to look like a man to be dominant in a "male creative space."

She could be wearing a bikini with big blonde hair with D-cups and you would still have to respect her because that is her choice. Like, congrats on making an androgynous female champion. But if this is coming from some repressed misogynist instinct then I really do not want / appreciate it.
You missed his point. And yes, you do have to respect any woman regardless of what she looks like or what she's wearing (likewise you have to respect any man regardless of his appearance or what he's wearing), but that's not what was being talked about. He isn't disrespecting some woman with blonde hair, D cups, and a bikini. He's just not creating one.


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BlainVM

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Quinn used to be a guy, then I turned her into a woman.
Oh hey guess they listened to that Gender bender thread that was around a few weeks ago lol


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BeastBox

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsaBootyHole View Post
You need to choose your words with a bit more care. This is coming off as a tad ignorant.

ALL WOMEN ARE WOMEN FIRST.
... ?

Not everyone considers their gender their defining characteristic. It's especially annoying in fiction because almost nothing passes the Bechdel test nowadays. Which is kind of a shame.

IronStylus isn't the one being a tad ignorant here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly5 View Post
Here are two images:
Iron Solari Leona - http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....ron_solari.jpg
Quinn's Concept - http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...0&d=1360785378

LOOK at those two images and TELL ME...
That Quinn is not a recolor of Iron Solari Leona (in Demacian blue).
TELL ME.
TELL ME.
It's not a recolour. Leona has no cape, isn't wearing leather, about the only part of the armor I see the same are the knees, etc.


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Dr Guyovich

Junior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly5 View Post
Here are two images:
Iron Solari Leona - http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....ron_solari.jpg
Quinn's Concept - http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...0&d=1360785378

LOOK at those two images and TELL ME...
That Quinn is not a recolor of Iron Solari Leona (in Demacian blue).
TELL ME.
TELL ME.

I will not compare her to poppy. Because Poppy's armor is rounder. It's "cuter." And poppy is about a fourth in size.

One has sword/shield, the other has bird/crossbow...
but I mean...COME ON...

The jagged edges...the proud face....the exposed face...the talon-cape leaf-shaped cape thing...
I MEAN COME ON...IRON SOLARI LEONA EVEN HAS A BIG "FALCON" MOTIF GOING FOR IT...(the shield, the background, etc).
I looked at those two pictures and i see 2 different champs.
When i first looked at Quinn's art I didnt think of Leona at all. Alot of people thiught she was a man i saw a woman right away. When i saw ot I just thought DAMN that looks badass! I think Quinn's art is great. Except for the helmet. Too obstructive. That's it.
Can't wait for Quinn!! So excited! Her bird has my name, Val!