@Riot'sLoreWriters: Please do not write such heavy-handed exposition

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1Eredale

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Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
neuroscience tricks

One does not simply trick into Riot.


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Birdy51

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Eredale View Post
One does not simply trick into Riot.
In Soviet Russia, Riot tricks itself into you!


On another note, this arguing doesn't really do anything. Nor will berating Rioters or any other players for that. I respect Runaan for taking the idea and running with it. The end result is still very interesting, regardless of whatever flaws can be perceived.

Regardless, I prefer to look at flaws in a different light. I look forward to the fact that as the lore progresses so will the skills of the people writing it. I'm not expecting them to poop gold. Not every one of Gragas' barrels thrown hits its mark. Sometimes, it ends up throwing Galio or Amumu into the center of your team, causing a teamfight which unfortunately ends in disaster.

On that rare special occasion though, Gragas might succeed in spintering the enemies formation, allowing his team to plow them down with wanton joy. Yet, if Gragas players never to use their ulimate for fear of rebuttal, then that player would have never suceeded at all.

Writing is the same way. It's been Quinn's lore is a bit of an experiment. Overall, I would dare to say a very successful experiment. Look at her introduction thread. People enjoy her without even seeing her face. I like Quinn myself. If it weren't for this laptop being not tuned for gaming, I would be doing my best to save up for her, regardless of her playing style. Quinn's journal made me become invested in her character. That's the biggest and perhaps the most important point of all.

If Runaan and the rest of the Creative team keep working at it, it is my core belief they can and will improve. Not every barrel will be a winner, but oh what winners will be. Flaws can be fixed and improved upon, but they take time, practice, and perhaps a bit of patience and constructive feedback on our end. This is how I choose to perceive things.

All the paper in Piltover won't change that perception.


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Gaeta

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
I think that you may be missing the context that I have been asking for the entire lore team to be fired for months now, and asking that Kitae be fired for not firing the lore team, and also informing members of the lore team on Twitter each time I do this

https://twitter.com/Eserine_Calabar

so that they have an opportunity to defend themselves if they deem it necessary to do so.

Pretending cheerfully to love the current state of the lore in this thread for the benefit of disingenuous psychological influence mechanisms would be an insult to Runaan's intelligence, and I much prefer to be straightforward and not resort to cheap neuroscience tricks in attempting to have a serious foundational discussion about how the game is made, not because I have manipulated Riot sufficiently into doing what I want by tricking them, but from the strength of the philosophical positions I and other players hold being obviously the right thing to do.
No matter how storied your history in this battle, that comment was extremely condescending and had an extreme negative impact on your credibility, at least to this neutral observer.

I don't have a horse in this race, but if you are seriously trying to make anything happen here, you need to step the **** back.

You are demanding entire departments be fired and replaced. You are demanding a level of detail and continuity not seen outside of, like, The Silmarillion. You are not even in the same solar system as the improvements that the controlling party here (Riot) is willing or able to implement.

I'm not saying you should pretend to like what's going on. I AM saying that, if you want to have ANY sort of impact on what happens here, you need to become part of the conversation that's actually happening. Or, if you value your ideological purity higher than that, then just keep on keeping on.


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Eserine

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Eredale View Post
One does not simply trick into Riot.
“Far, far below the deepest delvings of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.”

Many owe their jobs at Riot to such strategies actually, and if one follows the DevTracker day-to-day the ruthless efficacy of such moves by players is amply displayed. You may have mistaken Riot for The Children of the Revolution:

Understanding this, I did not use such tactics against the employment of the lore staff, just as I wouldn't punch an armless, legless kitten in the face as its owners attempted to get it to run a marathon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy51 View Post
In Soviet Russia, Riot tricks itself into you!


On another note, this arguing doesn't really do anything. Nor will berating Rioters or any other players for that. I respect Runaan for taking the idea and running with it. The end result is still very interesting, regardless of whatever flaws can be perceived.

Regardless, I prefer to look at flaws in a different light. I look forward to the fact that as the lore progresses so will the skills of the people writing it. I'm not expecting them to poop gold. Not every one of Gragas' barrels thrown hits its mark. Sometimes, it ends up throwing Galio or Amumu into the center of your team, causing a teamfight which unfortunately ends in disaster.

On that rare special occasion though, Gragas might succeed in spintering the enemies formation, allowing his team to plow them down with wanton joy. Yet, if Gragas players never to use their ulimate for fear of rebuttal, then that player would have never suceeded at all.

Writing is the same way. It's been Quinn's lore is a bit of an experiment. Overall, I would dare to say a very successful experiment. Look at her introduction thread. People enjoy her without even seeing her face. I like Quinn myself. If it weren't for this laptop being not tuned for gaming, I would be doing my best to save up for her, regardless of her playing style. Quinn's journal made me become invested in her character. That's the biggest and perhaps the most important point of all.

If Runaan and the rest of the Creative team keep working at it, it is my core belief they can and will improve. Not every barrel will be a winner, but oh what winners will be. Flaws can be fixed and improved upon, but they take time, practice, and perhaps a bit of patience and constructive feedback on our end. This is how I choose to perceive things.

All the paper in Piltover won't change that perception.
Perhaps this will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYv5IS6RaA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaeta View Post
No matter how storied your history in this battle, that comment was extremely condescending and had an extreme negative impact on your credibility, at least to this neutral observer.

I don't have a horse in this race, but if you are seriously trying to make anything happen here, you need to step the **** back.

You are demanding entire departments be fired and replaced. You are demanding a level of detail and continuity not seen outside of, like, The Silmarillion. You are not even in the same solar system as the improvements that the controlling party here (Riot) is willing or able to implement.

I'm not saying you should pretend to like what's going on. I AM saying that, if you want to have ANY sort of impact on what happens here, you need to become part of the conversation that's actually happening. Or, if you value your ideological purity higher than that, then just keep on keeping on.
My initial questions to Runaan in this thread should be understood to be an attempt to join "the conversation", she and the others of the lore team I have spoken out against are clearly not going to be judged upon the work they do (or terminated for it, despite any efforts I have made), so I would like to know instead why the writers make the creative decisions they make (such as using the phrase "modus operandi") and how they see the work finally developing if it is not going to, in any way, resemble the Simarillion.

Part of the "solar system" you mention must include President Tryndamere's resolve to make all aspects of the game 'more awesome all the time', in my view the lore does not live up to this commitment (even after years of most the current writers being present to shape the IP), but if the lore writers think that the lore does fit with this commitment, or what the players of this game want, I want to find out how and why they hold these beliefs, so that I may share their joy in delivering such content upon the masses, because personally I do not understand their efforts (and I don't think that players like Birdy51 do either, who simply wait for them to metamorphose one day into totally different people).


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Birdy51

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Oh Eresine, you've taken me out of context again I'm afraid!

I do not want them to change who they are. I simply suspect that there is untapped potential. Context my friend, context! Regardless, this is more of me being an optimist if anything. I blame copius amounts of musical theater for that trait. It suits me well and I have no intention on changing anytime soon.

Also, thanks for the link to the B movie! Might be worth a few chuckles if I can find time to watch it. If you happen to have some more time than I do though, I sincerely reccomend the book Candide. It's a short novel of social criticism by Voltaire. I enjoyed it myself, and found it's arguements to be rather poignant. Look up at the library if you get the chance.


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Eserine

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy51 View Post
Oh Eresine, you've taken me out of context again I'm afraid!

I do not want them to change who they are. I simply suspect that there is untapped potential. Context my friend, context! Regardless, this is more of me being an optimist if anything. I blame copius amounts of musical theater for that trait. It suits me well and I have no intention on changing anytime soon.

Also, thanks for the link to the B movie! Might be worth a few chuckles if I can find time to watch it. If you happen to have some more time than I do though, I sincerely reccomend the book Candide. It's a short novel of social criticism by Voltaire. I enjoyed it myself, and found it's arguements to be rather poignant. Look up at the library if you get the chance.
I understand what you meant Birdy51, the point of me linking the movie in response to your post (which is actually a biography of a famous historical B-movie director, by the creator of The Nightmare Before Christmas) is that often people are not "full of untapped potential", so that actually what you expect to happen with the lore of LoL is (in my view) probably impossible, you are expecting the artists to develop beyond their interest or scope of artistic approach into something that they can never be.

Candide (as you may realize) is a social satire meant to demonstrate that optimists are idiots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide

I am not sure why you have referenced this work after declaring yourself an optimist, but I am also not sure why you spell "copius", "reccomend", or "arguements" the way that you do during a debate about writing-quality, to have no one jump in to challenge you the way everyone is quick to label me as a bitter psychopath for pointing out such things (context my friend, context!).

Once again, as in our previous conversation, I wish you luck in finding the lore to be "the best possible world of storytelling", however, (as you may have guessed) my concerns, or desire for more information about the writing priorities for LoL, are still not alleviated.

Alas, predictably no answer seems to be forthcoming from any later pages of this thread...

EDIT NOTE: As I was about to write before the NA forum servers went offline, as you seem to be a fan both of France and of musicals you may find Les Bien-aimés an interesting film to watch if you haven't seen it yet, it's about the serious consequences of settling for less than you truly want in the hope of things getting better at some point in the future, and the songs are quite catchy: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1815799/


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Vashos

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
I am not sure why you have referenced this work after declaring yourself an optimist, but I am also not sure why you spell "copius", "reccomend", or "arguements" they way that you do during a debate about writing-quality, to have no one jump in to challenge you the way everyone is quick to label me as a bitter psychopath for pointing out such things (context my friend, context!).
For someone who runs his/her mouth about writing quality you're seriously over-focused on technicalities. Writers have editors for a reason (and may I remind you it's the writers *not* the editors that make the money and are the social superstars). An English professor is not always an artist in the literary context, but they might make nice support staff.

I read a book last summer about the Northwest Passage (The Man Who Ate His Boots, iirc) and there was a line in it that I find very applicable to you, Eserine. I don't recall the exact words, but basically the author described one man in the book as being destined to be ignored by history not because he didn't have anything to offer or because he wasn't remarkable in some way...but because nobody liked him.

You might have some good questions and legitimate concerns about the lore, but by blustering around with the holier-than-thou/intellectually superior air you've been presenting to the people on this forum (including the professionals at Riot) you're only digging yourself into a hole and causing people to shut you down before you even get started. If you were sufficiently creative on an independent level this might not matter, because you'd go on to create your own IP or find your own answers and be the next League of Legends, but (and I'm new to this forum so if I've missed it forgive me) you haven't presented any suggestions here as to how the lore can be bettered. You just point out all you think is wrong with it.


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1Eredale

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Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Candide (as you may realize) is a social satire meant to demonstrate that optimists are idiots.
At least he was trying at first... Come now, you can be more subtle than that. Besides, if I'm destined to be an idiot, I'd rather be a happy, cheerful idiot who is full of hope, rather than a 'scholar' who demands that people be fired and a massive product that has 4 years of history (which he gets free of charge, of all things) to change drastically to 'alleviate his desires and concerns'.

You sound like the type of person who would crusade for racial representation in the League.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

02-13-2013

It's certainly not fun to read something that comes across as using your intellect as a weapon. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar (and more with rotting meat than honey but you get my meaning). Your love of lore gets lost in your presentation of it.


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Birdy51

Senior Member

02-13-2013

I will take a look at the musical because it does sound interesting.

Also, yes I am well aware that optimist protagonist of Candide is dashed to pieces by how ****-sack the world is. However the full scope of the book cannot be read shortened. Many points are made beyond what's on the surface. Voltaire weaves those points into the text in a well-written way. That's why I suggested it as a reading. Reading the wiki doesn't do the book the justice it deserves.

As to why I called myself an optimist, that's because it reveals a bit of who I am. No real arguements there. Like Eredale stated, it makes the days a bit more bright. :P