Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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lceCar

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Senior Member

02-08-2013

As for the people who say competitive Melee's barrier is too high, well, it's pretty true. Melee's skill ceiling is INCREDIBLY HIGH.
But I think that's appropriate for COMPETITIVE play. After all, shouldn't you be skilled if you're willing to put money on the line? Shouldn't you be rewarded for investing time/practice into a game? Is this also not true of League where you learn matchups/champion abilities/timings?
I too think that trying to learn everything there is to know about playing Melee well is daunting, but there's a learning curve for all competitive games. Sure, there's probably a better sweet spot for a learning curve, but as in all competitive games, you can't just expect to jump in and be competitive. It takes time and effort to be skilled enough where you're willing to pay and enter tournament of your own free will cause you think you're good enough to win.
Besides, no one's forcing anyone to get better at a game. Just wanna play for fun? Go for it. If you want to play competitively, that's your choice to put in the time to get better.

Edit: I don't mean to come off as an elitist or trying to blow off newcomers to the Smash series, but I don't see why people have an issue with the mechanics in Melee. Sure, the techniques which separate the skilled players from the casual players may seem finicky, but let's say they were put into Brawl. Casual players playing with other casual players would still have the same experience. Skilled players would still beat casual players (albeit probably faster), highly skilled players would still stomp casual players, and the competitive players would still enjoy their competition without being bogged down by the slow pace. I don't see how the inclusion of Melee's mechanics ruins the game for casual players.


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Razzed

Member

02-08-2013

I kinda wish the games were 6v6 this way you could have two duo lanes a solo and a jungle
because solo lanes are boring and put too much attention on balance between 2 champions

I remember when i first started and no one could jungle the lane combinations were fun mixes of diffrent champions not just ad carry support.

It feels wrong to play this game with all these diverse champions and skill sets and never being able to combine them except in team fights.


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Vocust

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Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed on this front - I think Brawl's design is inferior, but the conversation is regularly couched in the competitive scene which adds a certain bias that fails to talk completely about the issues.
They do have some dedicated people out there that corrected that mistake. They called it Project M and it enables the old melee mechanics while taking out the tripping and most of the stage hazards.

It's really flippin awesome!

For anyone that is interested: http://projectm.dantarion.com/downloads/


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Arixa

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Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed on this front - I think Brawl's design is inferior, but the conversation is regularly couched in the competitive scene which adds a certain bias that fails to talk completely about the issues.
I've pretty much felt that fighting games are doomed to niche audience because of their competitive scenes. The hardcore fans that the games are often designed for value things that alienate everyone else. When you value things like 1 frame links as a measure of skill it really cripples the amount of people that can play your game.

On Smash:

Removal of wave dashing and reduction of L canceling were great for Smash.

Making every character half as fast, randomly trip, and able to survive even the hardest hitting moves at upwards of 150%? Not so much.

From what I understand though they went into the design with the intent to remove competitive play as an option when they went to Brawl...so I guess that means the design was a success.


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well it depends on the goals - there is no harm if Melee competitive is alive and well. The biggest fighting game at EVO sounds like it's doing just fine. Is it a problem that Brawl is not a competitive game if melee is still kicking strong? I see that as the more successful version of SC/SC2.

Also, read the developer's responsibility to their fans - ensuring a depth level is retained through other mechanics. I think a good example is TF2 vs TFC - it's a totally different game, but TF2 has different depth. TFC players likely don't like that (and remember, I was a massive TFC player) but that doesn't matter if the new game has its own direction and successfully delivers.

Don't be scared to offer new depth and new skills, and make players learn all over again is my main point.
The problem with Brawl can by boiled down to the tripping mechanic, everything else is pretty much fine enough but when there's a 'feature' that makes it so there's a chance your character will slip and fall down instead of doing whatever they were trying to do. This is what really stymied Brawl as a competitive game, especially because you can't turn the feature off. As for me, I don't really like project M, Brawl isn't trying to be the same game Melee was so there were other mods I preferred.

Although I feel like I should point out that while I don't think Brawl was as well designed at Melee I still like it. And the tripping mechanic probably seemed innocent enough when they came up with it, they didn't know they were creating one of the worst mechanics ever (no I don't consider that hyperbole, it's really bad) and it was probably so integrated in their system that when they did catch it, it was way too late to change. Much like the point I brought up about animation cancelling in League.


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Slogra

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed on this front - I think Brawl's design is inferior, but the conversation is regularly couched in the competitive scene which adds a certain bias that fails to talk completely about the issues.
It's viewed through the scope of competitive players because they're usually the ones who care the most. But let's go ahead and have a discussion on a casual level.

The casual players I encountered were usually playing Brawl by happenstance - roommates, girlfriends of my friends, or extended family at get-togethers. They seemed really bored after only a few rounds.

Your defense for Brawl seems to be that it succeeded at the casual level. I would say no. Brawl's defensive mechanics are extremely shallow because you can just either mash the dodge button (no need to time it!) in the air, or just shield, roll and run away, and then you have a fully healthy shield in less than 2 seconds to rinse and repeat.

Melee's dodges left you extremely vulnerable. If poorly times, you could suicide or simply be left hanging in the air. Shields depleted much quicker, and movement speed was way higher, so rolling away didn't work as long as new players knew to slam the joy stick to dash. In short, stale and cowardly play will win you Brawl games, but probably not Melee games.

Casual players will also inevitably play with items turned on. Did you choose Lucario? Well good, because that Smash Ball that randomly spawned by you just gave you a triple kill. Playing Donkey Kong on a moving level? Instant suicide. The casual Lucario player got 3 kills and probably won a match he didn't deserve, and the DK player probably just threw a match, because if he got hit AT ALL during the stock where he picks up the Smash Ball, it counts as a kill for another player, not a suicide.

Absolutely none of the casual players I've seen were sucked into Brawl. After only a few games, they were treating it like a chore. But almost all the casual players - including myself - for Melee became long-lasting players. Not necessarily all hard-core, but they'll still pick up the game every once in a while.

Sorry Morello. Brawl fails even at the casual level. I know this was all personal experience, but where else can you find evidence about casual players?


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slogra View Post
It's viewed through the scope of competitive players because they're usually the ones who care the most. But let's go ahead and have a discussion on a casual level.

The casual players I encountered were usually playing Brawl by happenstance - roommates, girlfriends of my friends, or extended family at get-togethers. They seemed really bored after only a few rounds.

Your defense for Brawl seems to be that it succeeded at the casual level. I would say no. Brawl's defensive mechanics are extremely shallow because you can just either mash the dodge button (no need to time it!) in the air, or just shield, roll and run away, and then you have a fully healthy shield in less than 2 seconds to rinse and repeat.

Melee's dodges left you extremely vulnerable. If poorly times, you could suicide or simply be left hanging in the air. Shields depleted much quicker, and movement speed was way higher, so rolling away didn't work as long as new players knew to slam the joy stick to dash. In short, stale and cowardly play will win you Brawl games, but probably not Melee games.

Casual players will also inevitably play with items turned on. Did you choose Lucario? Well good, because that Smash Ball that randomly spawned by you just gave you a triple kill. Playing Donkey Kong on a moving level? Instant suicide. The casual Lucario player got 3 kills and probably won a match he didn't deserve, and the DK player probably just threw a match, because if he got hit AT ALL during the stock where he picks up the Smash Ball, it counts as a kill for another player, not a suicide.

Absolutely none of the casual players I've seen were sucked into Brawl. After only a few games, they were treating it like a chore. But almost all the casual players - including myself - for Melee became long-lasting players. Not necessarily all hard-core, but they'll still pick up the game every once in a while.

Sorry Morello. Brawl fails even at the casual level. I know this was all personal experience, but where else can you find evidence about casual players?
It's a good thing you and some people you know is a viable sample size.


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Daedälus

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogadewd View Post
@ morello

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post34407591

aram match making with a few conditions...

4,931 replies

427,390 views

mostly gone unnoticed...until now, when you formally give us a verdict on arams future.

I hate being the direct and pushy guy, but lets face it...for a post that started back in 07-08-12...having only 5 riot employee posts on such a large forum post with relevant topic, i cant help but feel a little angry.

Dogadewd <---with a capital d

p.s. You said be vocal.
We want this ^


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MURDEROUS1

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Diablow3! Error 3556


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-09-2013
69 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arixa View Post
I've pretty much felt that fighting games are doomed to niche audience because of their competitive scenes. The hardcore fans that the games are often designed for value things that alienate everyone else. When you value things like 1 frame links as a measure of skill it really cripples the amount of people that can play your game.
Agreed here, as a former Tekken player