Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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Wargasmic

Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The Sivir one is legit, though the other things are not 5-minute fixes Many things that might seem simple are more complex than they look (Rammus VFX).

I agree we're not well set-up to do this right now.
But the good thing is that you are starting to get there. It's better than just saying "That's too far off, let's go do something else." But while I say this, Sivir is my favorite female champion, shower her with love please.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's interesting because you're right - the requirement to finish a game you start creates a lot more behavioral problems as a result. This design is important because it's a double-edged-sword; one thing it does do, and part of the unique appeal of MOBA (prediction: this will not be unique in 5 years) is the investment in success one gets when you can't leave.

I'm primarily an FPS player myself, and join and leave those as I please. I like to win, but the investment I have in trying to win (and the associated joy/sadness) is ramped up a ton in League - mostly because I'm committed to the game session. My actions will have consequences - something I find sorely lacking in modern AAA development.

League of Legends is designed to be fun, but first and foremost, it's designed to be engaging. Tradeoffs do have to occur to make that happen - but the fact that we take on player behavior as a problem for us to deal with gives us a unique freedom to do design like this.
Not only this, but this sort of "when you're in, you're in" nature that League matches have by nature (and a nature that is enforced by the LB system) creates a better sense of uniformity and competitive fortitude--it becomes a stronger team game, because not only do you spend 20-50 minutes building (or trying to build) a bond with your teammates to ensure a greater chance of victory, but you also improve at a faster pace because when you mess up, you're forced to clean up after your own mess because you're not going anywhere.

There isn't that "oh I made a mistake, time to leave this game and just jump into another one" mentality (which I'll admit became incredibly tempting in TF2--getting camped by a spy because I don't know how to place my sentry/dispenser combo in more than one place? just go to a different game!), which really helps the game come together as a whole and keeps the community from spiraling into chaos.

When people are held accountable for their actions, they tend to put a bit more effort into getting things right the first time!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shosuko View Post
Of all of the games I've played over the last 10 years, Riot is the least of my worries.

They don't always get it right, but the amount of time they do is impressive. When something does go wrong, they admit it and fix it. They also pay a lot of attention to the fan base, without just doing what the fan base wants.

I'm really proud of Riot, and feel every penny I've dropped into this game has been more rewarding than any other. Even now where I'm not playing this game so much (we all go on breaks) I'm still buying a few skins I like b/c I know I'll be back.

Other games that have dropped the ball typically do it b/c they won't reverse a decision. This is the single worst offense a game developer can make. Let's face it, no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes. Bad companies turtle up and ignore the ragings hoping the players will "see it their way." Riot cops to it. Even if they don't revert, they explain their logic behind it. Their developers always have amazing insights into game development and game balance that I appreciate, even when I disagree.
"It's not a bug, it's competitive depth." -IceFrog


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-07-2013
50 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwIzTiDofAH View Post
Well, coming from a game/web developer, I can say its not always what us as programmers want to do. Sometimes we are persuaded, or even forced by people bigger up to make games certain ways, and typically what your saying is correct; often we make games appeal more to newer players and easier for all skill levels to play. Most programmers of course like myself are mega gamers, and skilled players as well, so we have the same views as you but typically, we have no choice. I guess all I'm saying is it isn't always the programmers you want to focus on, but the guys bigger up, as they are sending these orders down to appeal to noobs for, what else, money.
I feel bad for you because your experience in the industry seems like it's been a bit of a nightmare.

One thing I will say with Riot that I think is different is that I feel we lack that - top-down stuff isn't our style, and I think that's part of why our game is actually more in-touch with players.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-07-2013
51 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invisibleally View Post
Before I played League, I played a game called, "Demigod" and thought the Rook in particular was pretty cool because, though sluggish, the Rook had automatic attacks that triggered when enemies were nearby (a laser tower on one shoulder and a nest of archers on the other. The Rook is huge ^ ^).

I see that most of the champions of league are "active" in nature, but I think I would enjoy a champion that has passive abilities, like a strong regen aura for itself and teammates and passive capability to damage enemies. Has that premise been considered? I like the idea of Heimer's regen aura, but the rate of regen seems really low compared to the amount of damage and health in the game. 5 per sec vs 100 damage per second seems steep to me, and I'm sure you get tired of having your judgement questioned, but I just have to ask...are ya SURE?
We have some of these overall like Aegis of the Legion and Despair, but generally speaking, we see Auras as power without gameplay. I tend to prefer that power comes from decisions (even the mana tradeoff on Despair helps make this have even a small amount of gameplay).


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-07-2013
52 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddalee View Post
Team Fortress 2 has added so many hats, patching it uses more data than playing it. I hardly use the new stuff, if I even play.

I was mildly disappointed when they overnerfed the Pyro update. Players were complaining that the backburner gave too much HP, but those same players didn't know how powerful the new knockback on the original flame thrower would be. Valve caved hard to whining, there. They would have prevented whining if they'd released the knockback before the full Pyro update, so players would realize the backburner's HP was no big deal. I guess I'm complaining that the company listened too well... oops. But of course that isn't what stopped me playing. It's the hats.
I hear this a lot when people talk of TF2, but I'm skeptical; how would hats have prevented play? Wouldn't there be some associated cause that might have lined up in a similar timeframe?


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ButterWorthIt

Junior Member

02-07-2013

Morello,

There are some issues with the Pulsefire Ezreal skin still. It has been flawed from release. Here is a link to a forum post that I made recently about it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ight=pulsefire

If you have time please read it. I wouldn't bother you with something about skins, but if I'm not mistaken you've recently joined the development team for upcoming skins. I have started to see more and more players complain about his gameplay being very "clunky" compared to classic and other skins. I really wish you guys would go back and fix this because this skin was Riot's pride 'n joy and now everyone has either refunded him or bought another Ezreal skin like I did (Nottingham).

Thanks for your time


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-07-2013
53 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Not only this, but this sort of "when you're in, you're in" nature that League matches have by nature (and a nature that is enforced by the LB system) creates a better sense of uniformity and competitive fortitude--it becomes a stronger team game, because not only do you spend 20-50 minutes building (or trying to build) a bond with your teammates to ensure a greater chance of victory, but you also improve at a faster pace because when you mess up, you're forced to clean up after your own mess because you're not going anywhere.

There isn't that "oh I made a mistake, time to leave this game and just jump into another one" mentality (which I'll admit became incredibly tempting in TF2--getting camped by a spy because I don't know how to place my sentry/dispenser combo in more than one place? just go to a different game!), which really helps the game come together as a whole and keeps the community from spiraling into chaos.

When people are held accountable for their actions, they tend to put a bit more effort into getting things right the first time!
Right - basically, everyone gets a "scrim" style experience!


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Oprahs Treadmill

Member

02-07-2013

Imo STOP nerfing/buffing champions.
Pretty soon it will end up like the Death Knight situation from WOTLK. Death Knights came out, dominated tanking and pvp. Paladins QQ because they'd get their ***es handed to them on a silver platter in pvp so in return Blizzard nerfed Death Knights. Then Death Knights QQ so Paladins got nerfed and it all went downhill from there.

I think if you (Riot) stop nerfing/ buffing champions based around a handful, if not one champion, then people will actually be forced to play the game the way it's meant to be played, A CHALLENGE.

I think all companies when they make a game want it to be a challenge but at the same time not just "rollface rofl stomp I win"... to me it looks like you are trying to cater to the players who don't want it a challenge and rather a "rollface rofl stomp I win" game.

I'm sure you guys are pulling your hair out trying to please everyone and their brother but the fact is you can't please everyone so just stop nerfing/ buffing and get the new champs right before releasing them via PBE and come play with us


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-07-2013
54 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ButterWorthIt View Post
Morello,

There are some issues with the Pulsefire Ezreal skin still. It has been flawed from release. Here is a link to a forum post that I made recently about it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ight=pulsefire

If you have time please read it. I wouldn't bother you with something about skins, but if I'm not mistaken you've recently joined the development team for upcoming skins. I have started to see more and more players complain about his gameplay being very "clunky" compared to classic and other skins. I really wish you guys would go back and fix this because this skin was Riot's pride 'n joy and now everyone has either refunded him or bought another Ezreal skin like I did (Nottingham).

Thanks for your time
Agreed 100% - much greater oversight on this. We'll be fixing Steel Legion Lux very shortly and iBlitzcrank's VFX will be made more readable before launch.

For the older ones, that will take some time, but I'd like to do this too.