Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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xDevilAirx

Junior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Long View Post
I agree that creep deny is more or less unnecessary. Grass is pretty unnecessary as well but basically serves the same function on the lane and overcompensates for ganking power. If people get too deny happy I know that the clear counter is aggressive and smart play against the offender. You force them to decide if it's really worth taking abuse with zero farm just to stop you from getting a small amount of exp.

If I'm the weaker match up in lane and the opposite team decides to sit in the grass, there's no counter play. I can't get to the creeps (zero farm/exp) and I can't harass, not without spending gold on wards. To me, this basically mandatory action of turning the invisibility off on lane is them forcing gold out of my hand, instead of last hitting to remove one small one time potential source (the creep being denied) on the lane.

I mean really Morello, where do you get off? You lambaste creep deny while knowing full well that LoL has an equally unnecessary mechanic that serves the same function to a more ridiculous extent. It's funny that I know DotA would be much better without creep deny, yet I find it to be much more tolerable by comparison.

Every time I get into a DotA game I can't help but feel ridiculously happy that there isn't grass anywhere. I'm glad I don't have to stress about hidden stats (runes/masteries). It's a literal joy knowing that I can pick or random whatever I like without being raged at or called a troll. My hero can function on any of the three lanes and if I need to switch lanes for better strategy or different tactics, I can.

There's no forced meta. In other words, the game is actually open ended, not stale and boring.

Your game failed me hard and I'm a casual.

It is also pretty stupid to have different account for every sodding region instead of keeping a single account but switching it from server to server.
i HATE smurfs, but i HAD to, in order to play with friends ftrom NA and EUE :\ and it is NOT fun not having ANY champ or rune or whatever. Or flash, for what matters.


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think it's, honestly, how the gameplay works.

MOBA, as a game-type, has great pacing, opportunities for lots of interesting matchups and characters, and is an inherently strategic game (without the resource management and APM requirements of traditional RTS).

"Well, Morello, why is League popular? You just described why MOBAs are fun."

To be frank, this answer is because our gameplay design is something we worked to evolve over the previous incarnations. A focus on in-combat and in-teamfight counterplay (as opposed to everything being setup/positioning focus) softer counters, getting rid of archaic mechanics that just bog things down (looking at you, denying) and things like letting you cast more than 2 or 3 spells before going OOM means you engage with opponents in ways that human beings tend to find psychologically engaging and meaningful.

"But Morello, that just makes it for noobs/casual!"

Not saying you're going to say that, but let's lay that argument to rest.

MOBA is probably one of the most hardcore game genres available, along with fighting games and traditional RTS. Our intent was to clean up the design and make everything there deliberate - each mechanic has a purpose and function. We also worked to make sure when you have to learn something, we try to have VFX, sounds and other indicators be as clear as possible. We want people to master the game itself, not odd UI and noisy graphics.

There's supporting factors like free-to-play and such, but honestly, with our server stability on launch and all that - there's no possible way League of Legends would not only survive the launch we had, but become the biggest thing to ever hit eSports if the gameplay wasn't good.

And to clarify, that's the hard work of guys like Guinsoo, Ezreal, Tryndamere, Brackhar, Zileas, (leaving out several I'm sure) etc. I didn't start until after launch.

What LoL has shown me is that developers don't have to get on the tidal wave of AAA development that wants everything to be so easy it lacks meaning and consequence. Hardcore "gamer's games" are a real, vibrant business that a lot of people have been drooling over for a long time. But you can make clear, sensible game design with good core gameplay for 1000's of hours if you can make the right tradeoffs and decisions.
Serious question, if this is all true then why is animation cancelling a thing in League?


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xDevilAirx

Junior Member

02-05-2013

Lol noisy graphic when every teamfight it's a damn clusterbull of colors ,_,


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deadheld

Senior Member

02-05-2013

xbox 360 failed me


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
36 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me Soraka View Post
Have you not seen Jax, Elise, Darius, ANY TOP LANE CHAMP?
That's the problem with top lane - I totally agree here. But let's note; players generally feel bad about this too.

There's a lot of things for us to fix in League, and many of those things are contrary to what we'd consider more optimal design.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
37 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiya View Post
Not to be a pushy person regarding it, but do you ever feel like you go wrong with nerfs and ever believe you're wrong?
I understand the thing between want and need, but take Shaco's nerfs for example: Shaco was a champion that fell off really hard late game, so his early game was all he had. To nerf his early game potential felt a little harsh as now, Shaco doesn't really have anything for him.
I'm not saying I'm right, you're wrong kind of thing. I'm just saying, is there a reason to some nerfs that maybe we're not understanding, because I listened to the explanation and that was what came to my mind that you were cutting down his early game, despite his late game - both from experience and opinions from what I know - being possibly one of the worst unless he feeds extraordinarily.
Oh for sure - we don't always make the right nerfs. I think the problem is the conversation is difficult to have for a couple reasons

1) I'm almost completely uninvolved with Live Balance these days, so my context is typically theoretical or philosophical as opposed to practical. I'd like to get the guys on the ground more involved with talking to people.

2) Signal-to-noise ratio on nerfs tends to be poor due to people generally not liking nerfs. Many conversations can be "crying wolf" or overstatements that make feedback difficult to gather.

I think we make balance mistakes, but I think anything players don't like is seen as a mistake - not the same thing


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Tobasco da Gama

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
2) Signal-to-noise ratio on nerfs tends to be poor due to people generally not liking nerfs. Many conversations can be "crying wolf" or overstatements that make feedback difficult to gather.
<massive sarcasm>Irelia is totally unviable now after all her nerfs! Riot pls buff Irelia!</massive sarcasm>


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Holynova

Senior Member

02-05-2013

What about Fiora shes so weak compared to other top lane champs and her passive becomes useless late game . Her w doesn't feel rewarding to you or punishing either to the opponent , it does horrible damage and doesn't block on hit effects. Her E is good but its so easy to make her waste it just by ccing her if you were to just remove some of the MS and give her cc reduction with her E it'd be good. Her Ultimate is good and bad in many ways, but the most annoying one is I walk into a bush and its canceled is extremely annoying and the CD is longer then it should be . Morello please stop neglecting the grand duelist she aint grand right now.


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Tilomentry

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Morello, a while back you touched on the topic of mobility creep when Fiora was released, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on it more since then. Now a days it seems that every champion release has some mobility built into their kit in some form (the last 3 that i think don't have any built in are Syndria, Zyra, and Varus) and I'm wondering if this is one (of possibly many) important issues of why many of the older champions who haven't been reworked yet receive little love in terms of play.

Is the mobility creep at its current stage good for the game or did you guys work yourselves into a bit of a trap? Does mobility need to be toned down?


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800eloPubtrash

Senior Member

02-05-2013

If newer champions were weaker and had less cc then powercreep wouldn't be much of a problem right?