Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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YSRS

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're overreading into it. In traditional MOBA, this is where the whole game is. Obviously this still matters a lot in League and we like that, we just want it to not be the entire focus.

I don't like "first mistake loses the game" design because it removes a lot of the other possible decisions. It's the same reason I don't want to play an FPS with only sniper rifles.
Hm, from a game-design perspective, what do you think about the CS mechanic of
Cash and how it plays out there?

League Related, How do you feel about top-lane champions like Riven, Irelia, and Elise?


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rumples

Senior Member

02-05-2013

so when do we get a champ with a chainsaw?...or at least a hedge trimmer..motorized weaponry.


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

02-05-2013

As I understand it, in DOTA, you can run across people with a 4 second stun, and to counter it you kill that person hard and often so they are hopelessly behind on gold and levels and you save up for an item that makes you immune to cc and laugh as they burnt their tiny mana pool on something useless...

Whereas in Lol, a champion has a slow skillshot that snares for seconds if you get hit, but you can hide behind minions... but wait! the minions are melting on a AoE DOT, and will die in 3... 2... Where to dodge to?


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Tweaky69

Member

02-05-2013

Hey Morello,
Just wanna say I think it's great how into the community you guys are. I played FPS's pretty much exclusive before being introduced to LoL and I never got the sense that the designers and such actually cared about our opinions, well enough to respond to them. I also love what you're doing and I think since i've joined (circa Riven release) it's gone from strength to strength. My only gripe is the Urgot nerf. That's probably the one point where I felt that a descion was made to make the game easier. I realise that Urgot was a pubstomper but I feel he's gone from Pubstomper to post nerf/pre rework eve. But anyway keep up the good work


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Tekel

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
As I understand it, in DOTA, you can run across people with a 4 second stun, and to counter it you kill that person hard and often so they are hopelessly behind on gold and levels and you save up for an item that makes you immune to cc and laugh as they burnt their tiny mana pool on something useless...

Whereas in Lol, a champion has a slow skillshot that snares for seconds if you get hit, but you can hide behind minions... but wait! the minions are melting on a AoE DOT, and will die in 3... 2... Where to dodge to?
lesser-so that you would want to kill and get that person down in gold/levels, and moreso that you would want to just try and simply avoid the situation. Those crazy stuns are "usually" put on the support/nukers, and they tend to be stronger early on. Morello summed it up pretty nicely with playing snipers only. 2 people dancing and the first to make a mistake pays a steep price for it. And to use the morgana example on only the League example is a little unfair considering there's actually way more examples of those situations in DOTA imo


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Sheogorath

Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're overreading into it. In traditional MOBA, this is where the whole game is. Obviously this still matters a lot in League and we like that, we just want it to not be the entire focus.

I don't like "first mistake loses the game" design because it removes a lot of the other possible decisions. It's the same reason I don't want to play an FPS with only sniper rifles.
I'm not sure whether this is the right place to ask, but are we going to see illusion magic akin to that in Skyrim or even league judgements on a champion? I find it to be very interesting and plausible, since it's already being used in your universe.


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Hercules Morse

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
What irks me the most is mantra that I incessantly hear of denying being archaic and bogging things down---if you're going to seriously make this accusation it's just as easy to argue that last-hitting, in general "bogs things down" and is archaic.
Before I start, I'll say I've never played dota. I've never 'denied' anything. I do see why it is a thing; in terms of winning the game by gaining an advantage over your opponent, it absolutely makes sense to kill your own units to deny exp and gold to the other team.

To me, though, it makes no sense that killing your own units is beneficial. Its unintuitive; where else do you see it, in any game? Its not the same as sacrifice, which is normally a weighed decision with consequences - its just casual murder of friendly units. This increases burden of knowledge and also complexity without adding much depth. You either do it or you don't, and much like last hitting, its not exactly difficult. Kill the dudes on low health, from both sides!

Furthermore, its a totally negative action. You gain nothing from it, but your prevent gains to your opponent. This is exactly why mana-burn is not in the game; its fine for you, but not fun at all for your opponent because they struggle to do anything - to actually play the game.

Comparing it to last hitting doesnt quite work either. Last hitting is not the problem (its just being efficient). Farming is not the problem either (you want to farm, its intuitive to kill the bad guys minions, it makes sense to be rewarded for it, and you want to buy items to be able to do cooler stuff). The problem is the negative consequences of pushing your lane, during the laning phase. I'm not certain how to fix it exactly, but adding denial sure as hell isnt gonna help.

(Off the top of my head, if morello comes back, how about a mechanic where if you push the lane, more opposing minions spawn? This is intuitive (reinforcements!), rewards you for pushing (more farm), and provides incentive to push back. Of course thats a 1 min thought so its bound to have plenty of downsides)


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
32 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
I feel creeped out. Am I being treated like a lab rat pressing a lever to get food pellets? Is this about creating a good game or an addictive game?

Hi, WoW.
All design is to make people feel a certain way. I want you to feel engaged with the game. :P

Welcome to science!


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spookyE5775

Junior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by with momoiroUME View Post
Most big corporation are like this. Runescape is probably another good example. I just play league till it ends up like that and another good MMO/MOBA comes out.
no cause all this kids ***** and cry telling riot what to do and this people are doing what they say


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
33 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by YSRS View Post
Hm, from a game-design perspective, what do you think about the CS mechanic of
Cash and how it plays out there?

League Related, How do you feel about top-lane champions like Riven, Irelia, and Elise?
I like Cash in CS, I think it adds some cool pacing to an otherwise flat experience. If a wider variety of guns were viable, I think it'd even be better.