Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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Divine Paradigm

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me Soraka View Post
LoL is one of the most ball kicking games I've ever played.
Are you sure you're playing the game Morello?
he said WoW, not LoL.


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MostlySilent

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me Soraka View Post
LoL is one of the most ball kicking games I've ever played.
Are you sure you're playing the game Morello?
He was describing WoW vs older MMOs.

Also I think that's more the genre (Competitive multiplayer games). Competitive games tend to be pretty brutal at times, look at Counterstrike, Team Fortress 2, Starcraft, etc. with a skill disparity or where someone makes a silly mistake.

Things get real bad, real fast.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
To be frank, this answer is because our gameplay design is something we worked to evolve over the previous incarnations. A focus on in-combat and in-teamfight counterplay (as opposed to everything being setup/positioning focus) softer counters, getting rid of archaic mechanics that just bog things down (looking at you, denying) and things like letting you cast more than 2 or 3 spells before going OOM means you engage with opponents in ways that human beings tend to find psychologically engaging and meaningful.
I'm a bit disappointed that you have such a view; while yes,I realize you work for Riot and thus work on LoL (and are therefore subject to bias in favor of this game; I'd b the same way in your shoes), I really don't like the implications of what you're subtly suggesting here---are you seriously stating that gameplay based on setup, positioning, creating opportunities, etc is not "psychologically engaging" and "not meaningful"?

What irks me the most is mantra that I incessantly hear of denying being archaic and bogging things down---if you're going to seriously make this accusation it's just as easy to argue that last-hitting, in general "bogs things down" and is archaic.

I'm very disappoint Morello, very very disappointed. =/


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Tekel

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
But you can make clear, sensible game design with good core gameplay for 1000's of hours if you can make the right tradeoffs and decisions.
I have to ask, is there somebody in your team that is like a hardcore psychology major? I tend to notice a lot of different things that aren't focused at what people necessarily want, and you say that would be a "need". Is there somebody on your team that knows tons of tricks to keep the mind having fun doing the same thing over and over? It sounds a bit silly, but I notice a lot of different things about League's changes.

It seems almost sometimes that you aren't trying to "balance" league of legends, so much as making it so there's always something new and that is seems something similar to a puzzle. With each patch a new "OP" comes out and tons of people are constantly trying to figure that out, in almost a race-like fashion. I know for instance myself, I love hunting across the wide selection of champions and trying to figure out that "Sleeper OP". That honestly along with the free week rotations giving me only a nibble of the champion makes this game so playable. Also surprisingly I find that nearly every time a character is on free week, I'll spam that character and it'll be so incredibly fun. Yet once I buy that character I'll usually squeeze out 2-3 games, compared to a free week 10-20 games.

Basically what I'm asking is if there's somebody who practically makes it their mission just to sit down and think about how they can make the game more appealing and enticing through use of psychology? Or is it most of it done at face value, then trial and error, and having the leniency given by a really good template model to give enough time to figure out what works and what doesn't? And do YOU try to sit there and think in depth sometimes?


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Tekel

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
I'm a bit disappointed that you have such a view; while yes,I realize you work for Riot and thus work on LoL (and are therefore subject to bias in favor of this game; I'd b the same way in your shoes), I really don't like the implications of what you're subtly suggesting here---are you seriously stating that gameplay based on setup, positioning, creating opportunities, etc is not "psychologically engaging" and "not meaningful"?

What irks me the most is mantra that I incessantly hear of denying being archaic and bogging things down---if you're going to seriously make this accusation it's just as easy to argue that last-hitting, in general "bogs things down" and is archaic.

I'm very disappoint Morello, very very disappointed. =/
Personally I and many others find the feeling of "oh I messed up once, sucks to be me" to be frustrating. And denying can generally be almost just as frustrating when you just simply have a bad game. It creates more depth, more aggressiveness, but at the end of the day, is it worth it? LoL took a bet that it wasn't worth it, and it paid out in the long run. Just my 2 cents


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
30 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me Soraka View Post
LoL is one of the most ball kicking games I've ever played.
Are you sure you're playing the game Morello?
I was talking about World of Warcraft. I agree MOBAs in general do this a lot (and think - LoL is the one that does this the -least-)


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
31 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
I'm a bit disappointed that you have such a view; while yes,I realize you work for Riot and thus work on LoL (and are therefore subject to bias in favor of this game; I'd b the same way in your shoes), I really don't like the implications of what you're subtly suggesting here---are you seriously stating that gameplay based on setup, positioning, creating opportunities, etc is not "psychologically engaging" and "not meaningful"?

What irks me the most is mantra that I incessantly hear of denying being archaic and bogging things down---if you're going to seriously make this accusation it's just as easy to argue that last-hitting, in general "bogs things down" and is archaic.

I'm very disappoint Morello, very very disappointed. =/
You're overreading into it. In traditional MOBA, this is where the whole game is. Obviously this still matters a lot in League and we like that, we just want it to not be the entire focus.

I don't like "first mistake loses the game" design because it removes a lot of the other possible decisions. It's the same reason I don't want to play an FPS with only sniper rifles.


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CooLTanG

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Master Recruiter

02-05-2013

There's still quite a bit of balance issues, especially with the lack of melee ad carries being viable and with this tanky meta going on, they are even worse off.

The laning is terrible, where range can use abilities and not cause creeps to agro them whatsoever. Even if a range champ does auto-attack you, by the time they get their 2nd autoattack off, the creeps de-agro again.

Hell, you ever try to farm minions as a melee under a turret with a ranged enemy champ there? Pathetic how turrets don't target the range champ whatsoever, even when your trying to kill the melee minions.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
A focus on in-combat and in-teamfight counterplay (as opposed to everything being setup/positioning focus) softer counters, getting rid of archaic mechanics that just bog things down (looking at you, denying) and things like letting you cast more than 2 or 3 spells before going OOM means you engage with opponents in ways that human beings tend to find psychologically engaging and meaningful.
I feel creeped out. Am I being treated like a lab rat pressing a lever to get food pellets? Is this about creating a good game or an addictive game?

Hi, WoW.


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Fenrisufr

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye Zero View Post
I've seen glitches/accidental coding error, that players enjoyed and could've sparked an idea for the developers to incorporate in the game, get "fixed". I've seen so many games turn to dust due to over-simplification of the game. Games that begin to turn "r&tard proof" hurts its older players and benefits newer players. The irony is making something extremely easy to understand doesn't quite bring out skill or understanding to the new users, they must go through the hours of experience like everyone else did. If anything the game becomes more easier and "over powered" from my experience and levels/achievements are gained much easier & faster.

All it took was Burning Crusade (Second Expansion of WoW) to wreck the game for a lot of users. WOTLK was personally what was the last straw for me. The 2 games that disappointed me the most were, Maplestory & Gunz. With so many new jobs and monsters, what used to take beta/2005 users a year+ of grinding to get to level 170-ish not even 200. Now in 2013 a player can achieve level 200 in a week with NX Cash(Karma Coins)

Gunz 2 removed the ability to K-style and many other trick moves. This was what made the game unique in its own way. No other game came close to the combat system gunz had. You defied gravity and did it with style(armor and skills) The best part was you did not have to conform to learning K-style.The community created their own game style without aid of the Developers. Everyone knew their play style and joined rooms that complimented it. (People didn't get angry because you didn't go with the meta(K-style) there were i believe 4 other styles then sprayers)

TL;DR I fear Riot will fall into this way of thinking "We know what you want" I see it a little bit, but hopefully its nothing. I'm curious to see if anyone has felt this way about a game you used to play. I'd like to read the comments.
First BC was the FIRST expansion to the game, however I agree WoW was great and went to noobvile ****e when WOTLK came out.