Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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DrTemptragon

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

While I don't think item actives are always the way to go, I currently have a huge thing for alchemy and similar systems.

I think the game could use more choices in the item department. Not balance-wise (everything currently has it's niche, so are just less niche-y than others), but boardness-wise. The new shop interface lets you do that when you couldn't before (because filerting and brief decriptions).

For example, with the new PBE patch, you've removed Catalyst from the Ohmwrecker recipie. While I agree that Ohmwrecker needed... something, Catalyst is now in a shockingly poor posisition. Personally, I think it should be a rival to Philostone, because they are similar in function (stats and a free bonus effect that saves gold). But Philostone builds into a ton of cool things, while the only reason to get Cata at a similar time is for RoA. No-one uses Cata for Cata. It's not the only item like this (Kindlegem comes to mind), but I think spreading the "that's got a cool effect" around from the base items, not just at a high level would help game and flexibility a lot.

Season 3 changes were still really good.

As for my aforementioned alchemy preference, more items with combo effects like Ryali's and Liandry's would be amazing. Bonuses for mixing and matching items together.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
26 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solance View Post
Good points, however, I would like to point out that as a player it is also disappointing to realize that the champion you have played for so long has little depth once you reach a certain level, that you spend all this time learning a champion that you cannot play better because your experiences and skill means little difference since you first picked the champion up.

It is also disappointing to learn that the designers realize that it is a sub par design but cannot change it because it would alienate the current players. You should not be afraid to diminish his popularity with the entry level players, but more worried about how his popularity will wane in the more experienced players who realize that vlad is actually quite boring and lack innovated play experiences.

If you are willing to take a risk in redesigning already boring champions such as ryze and kat why be scared to adding some synergy (not power or a complete overhaul) to vlad to optimize his play? I argue that vlad can be remade to optimize design without a drastic change, after seeing some of the kat and ryze changes that made them more interesting than their older selves.
In this case, I feel (maybe incorrectly, but...) that Vlad's current joy is from the problematic mechanics - honestly, the main problem is his Q


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

02-05-2013

The issue I have with Blitz is how incredibly binary and flat his grab feels. Fire the ability, if it hit someone, great! Your team instagibs them and cleans up on the 4v5. If not, whatever, wait for normal initiate or another chance at hooking. And what's worse, it's a massive penalty for a small slipup, causing you to be out of the fight for 40-90 seconds and your team is probably dead because of it too. And what's worse, the rest of his kit has to be crappy because of how stupidly strong grab is in the right conditions. It drains power from his kit, it's not fun to fight, and it's not a huge cost to shoot one past early game.

(there's the niche case of hooking a tank like amumu but in that case the conditions are reversed)


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Raptamei

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In this case, I feel (maybe incorrectly, but...) that Vlad's current joy is from the problematic mechanics - honestly, the main problem is his Q
He is one of those champions that is fun to play because he is frustrating to play against but not to such a degree that he becomes annoying. He is a massive turtle in lane and has free poke, but until level 7 or so he doesn't poke hard enough to be a real threat and with no cc he can't actually kill you. It only gets annoying at level 9.

This is different from Yorick, who just buries you under ghouls starting at level 2 or so and there is very little you can do about it without getting a jungle gank. Darius is a similar story. And Teemo with his ability to poison you and run away makes you want to break things.

It would be different if Vlad's Q was actually powerful.


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guinsu

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Junior Member

02-05-2013

Morello,
I absolutely love the pragmatic relativism that shines behind your explanations, you seem to have achieved that near-zen level of peace of mind gained by full realization of your own opinion with respect to others'. I'd offer to buy you a pizza and hang out with me sometime if it were realistic :P.

That being said,
what's wrong with vlad's q?
what content is most mechanistically broken right now in the eyes of the team?
what content is most thematically stale?
do you ever consider redesigning a single or multiple skills in a skillset completely? if so, how do you decide what new mechanic would be most cohesive with any given champion?
most importantly, do you see in the near future a way Riot will improve the champion manufacturing process in a way that stops power creep without having to go through the release-> nerf cycle??

thanks a bunch for all your answers, just my luck I always get addicted to sifting for your posts at 3 am


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MostlySilent

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In this case, I feel (maybe incorrectly, but...) that Vlad's current joy is from the problematic mechanics - honestly, the main problem is his Q
What if he was pushed toward more of a "sustained" caster that he already sort of is?

Give him a new passive, or just add it on, or whatever people find works best.

Have every spell apply a stack of his passive to targets afflicted, gaining bonus effects from each stack.

Q: Could perhaps heal more per stack. (I actually like having a longer cooldown, but decreasing per stack, ala Darius' Crippling Strike)
W: A heavier slow vs targets with passive stacks. Increased damage could promote using it offensively later on, but I'm a little wary of a damage amp here.
E: I'm not really sure in the 30 seconds I thought about it.
R: Each stack could increase the damage amplification, if it started at say 10%, each stack could amp by another 1% or so. Or potentially causes spells hitting targets afflicted by the ultimate to gain two stacks instead of just one. (Or perhaps it deals immediate damage based on the number of stacks on a target, so perhaps you'd want to save the ultimate? This could cause a situation where you don't feel right waiting to use it, but also don't feel right using it immediately.)


With a little retooling of cooldowns he could turn into a champion that makes decisions based on the order in which he uses spells and whom he targets.


It's really rough, but it seems like a path Vladimir could hit. He's big on, "I hit things a lot of times over a long period of time" so why not accentuate that instead of his, I use Q and I heal and win by numbers, gameplay?


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Raptamei

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
The issue I have with Blitz is how incredibly binary and flat his grab feels. Fire the ability, if it hit someone, great! Your team instagibs them and cleans up on the 4v5. If not, whatever, wait for normal initiate or another chance at hooking. And what's worse, it's a massive penalty for a small slipup, causing you to be out of the fight for 40-90 seconds and your team is probably dead because of it too. And what's worse, the rest of his kit has to be crappy because of how stupidly strong grab is in the right conditions. It drains power from his kit, it's not fun to fight, and it's not a huge cost to shoot one past early game.
Blitz is a nerfed version of a Dota hero. There is nothing wrong with the grab concept, it's just LoL has a different idea of gameplay. In Dota positioning is much less important, making the grab weak outside a 1v1 where he can hook you and instantly kill you with his Warwick ult, and you counter this by warding. In LoL positioning is everything and you HAVE to win a teamfight in order to win the game, so you have to risk a grab and immediate death.

Riot has reworked the grab twice (Nautilus, Thresh) but it doesn't solve Blitzcrank.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

02-05-2013

A more general post: I dislike League's general design trends of "work to remove enemy options faster than they can do the same to you". So many characters demonstrate this (nid, vlad, soraka, etc.) that it often feels like people play to make sure I, as one of their opponents, are not having a fun time as opposed to someone who wants to win by being better.


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MostlySilent

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
A more general post: I dislike League's general design trends of "work to remove enemy options faster than they can do the same to you". So many characters demonstrate this (nid, vlad, soraka, etc.) that it often feels like people play to make sure I, as one of their opponents, are not having a fun time as opposed to someone who wants to win by being better.
I can agree with this.

I dislike winning by not allowing the opponent to do things. Winning because you did cooler things feels awesome.


Winning because they can't deal with Nidalee split-push or massive amounts of lock-down crowd control are way less fun to deal with because you feel hopeless.


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Solance

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In this case, I feel (maybe incorrectly, but...) that Vlad's current joy is from the problematic mechanics - honestly, the main problem is his Q
I can agree to that, I get plenty of joy using Q on my enemies and clearing waves with hyper speed. However, there is also major problems with this:

A. you are also denied of your major joy when you opponent prevents you of your Qs by either zoning vlad or out trading him.
B. its a extremely frustrating to play against, there is little you can do as the enemy when vlad is snowballed

These things make vlad either snowball out of control by out healing you on every exchange, snowball harder by clearing creeps faster, force you to turret hug, and die to easy turret dives or become extremely weak, easy to kill, and have no come back whatsoever, (much like old tryndemere in fact).


I realize the above can be said about any losing champ, but on vlad is especially hard since you are limited by your lack of tools to do anything about it. You have fixed snowballing/frustrating bipolar problems like this in jax to some degree, and I think you can fix up vlad and make him more interesting to play and played against.

Also I like to point out that experienced junglers will also pressure vlad early game to stop his slow balling, so a lot of matters are taken out of the vlad's players hands when your champion is a snowballing champion. While this is not always a bad thing and it does sometime encourage your jungler to gank for you early (usually bad since vlad lack both damage and cc for a good ganking partner early, it is almost always better for the opposing jungler than your own. My point is its very likely for upper level junglers to make your game very frustrating once you are "anti" snowballed.

PS: I realize that most of what I said you probably already know, but I stand by my point that synergy is the way to fix up vlad without giving him more power. Also I thank you for working hard this late at night to discuss champions with us players, I love vlad but I cannot stand where he is at right now in terms of game-play and skill ceiling.