Did Annie's visual rework surprise you?

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Shizuhara

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Senior Member

01-29-2013

While unexpected, I really appreciated the Annie rework and rather liked it. It makes me arbitrarily more excited for the Karma rework, though I wish (however implausibly) that her theme didn't have to change much. She's technically a beautiful champion, but if her kit is on par with others, it's in such an obscure way that no one has quite figured it out. If she could be played more effectively via knowledge or tweaks, her personality might catch on better.

But alas...I am sadly not armed with Riot's research tools, so I'll defer to their collective judgement on the matter.


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Aavak

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stopher121 View Post
Im just going to mention Trundle because i think he is in need of a rework both visually and mechanically.
He is ugly and i know it is from a disease but maybe he could be a little less ugly. Also his skills dont scale at all aside from his ult, but who is going to build AP just for that.
Just while we're spit-balling here, why not suggest a Cured Trundle skin. Victorious and stuff. Some weird armor. IDK


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SoresuMakashi

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In this case, your sample size is a self-selected peer group. This will definitely shape how you view what works and doesn't in League, that's just being human! How we look at this, though, is through a much broader lens that shows trends and what they can teach us about what players do and do not like.

I tend to be the same type of player as you where I tend to like unpopular or unexpected characters in games (and why I started with Anivia!), but looking at what League players tend to like, Karma's theme and gameplay are very low on that list.

We don't need to maximize popularity, but we do need to use some scientific method to understanding player better than even our own experiences can tell us.
Woah, woah, woah. Now, I know that this is just another self-selected peer group, but my friends all recognise that Karma is a well designed champion (especially thematically), even if hate her as a champion due to balance. I don't care much for balance, and looking from my more objective standpoint, I whole-heartedly believe that her theme and gameplay is very strong. In fact, I'd argue that the she has the most unique and well portrayed thematics of any champion, all the way from abilties, to visuals, to lore, to role in a game.

Are you sure you're properly factoring in game balance when considering "what players do and do not like"? If she was OP, I bet she'd be a lot more popular :P

And extending this further, even if Karma is not what the "majority" of people find appealing, does that mean you shouldn't have made her? Should Riot just keep using the same thematic archetypes over and over again? Niche archetypes give depth and choice, and are definitely worth exploring. I believe that it's more important to have 5-10 champions that you truly connect with than 100 that you just "kinda enjoy".

Edit: @Morello Just for clarity, were you suggesting that her thematics weren't appealing or that the execution of the thematics was poorly done?


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exe3

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01-29-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yes, it's been a long time and I understand the frustration, there's just not a lot of valuable conversation I can have about it because we basically had to restart the rework about 6 weeks ago. It's moving along very well now though - this is the danger of us telling stuff before it's ready, because the Karma subject is now a larger subject because we didn't manage expectations here.

Things get weird in development sometimes, and cause things to change - it's more painful when we make that more visible though
Does this mean the changes where she no longer had mantra charges has been scrapped? I really really honestly hope so. Picked her up recently and except for Spirit Bonds (good in concept, bad in execution, it's a wasted mantra if you use it on that, should be salvageable with tweaks though) she's amazing, borderline OP imo. I love her current playstyle of using mantras as a second resource to enhance her abilities and would hate to lose her Q and E and the bonuses you get by mantra'ing them.

There was also talk about Mantras not feeling ultimate enough. Not only do I feel that's a load of bs (particularly for her shield nuke, so satisfying to use) but how do you explain champions like Jayce and Elise now?

I'm also worried you're going to force her into the 0cs support role, I play her mid and man is she fun.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-29-2013
52 of 65 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyzephiax View Post
I can understand anivia is not on the list of visual rework but what about a new skin for her? She's definitely my favorite and she didn't get any new skin for about 2 years( last skin released at 2011-03-01).

So I just want to know are you gonna give her a skin recently? Or are the rest of battlecast skins really exist (which include anivia, skarner and kog) ? I was dreaming about a new skin for her more then half a year, so plz plz tell me.

Thank you.
We are going to give Anivia a skin soon - which I'm obviously quite excited about myself. It's a doozy


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SrFreakLord

Member

01-29-2013

Man battlecast prime anivia will so crack some eggs on peoples faces !!!


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-29-2013
53 of 65 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoresuMakashi View Post
Woah, woah, woah. Now, I know that this is just another self-selected peer group, but my friends all recognise that Karma is a well designed champion (especially thematically), even if hate her as a champion due to balance. I don't care much for balance, and looking from my more objective standpoint, I whole-heartedly believe that her theme and gameplay is very strong. In fact, I'd argue that the she has the most unique and well portrayed thematics of any champion, all the way from abilties, to visuals, to lore, to role in a game.

Are you sure you're properly factoring in game balance when considering "what players do and do not like"? If she was OP, I bet she'd be a lot more popular :P

And extending this further, even if Karma is not what the "majority" of people find appealing, does that mean you shouldn't have made her? Should Riot just keep using the same thematic archetypes over and over again? Niche archetypes give depth and choice, and are definitely worth exploring. I believe that it's more important to have 5-10 champions that you truly connect with than 100 that you just "kinda enjoy".

Edit: @Morello Just for clarity, were you suggesting that her thematics weren't appealing or that the execution of the thematics was poorly done?
For how we get this data, it's through "appeal" - a study set that our researchers do that measures thematic attraction via non-gameplay elements of a champion. Karma's low appeal is unsurprising to me, as is Urgot's and Trundle's.

I think the thematic is really hard to pull off in the space that League of Legends has, and she's not the only character like this. The theme needs to be overt, but some of the details can contain interesting subtleties - this is different than something like an RPG, where a designer can use more storytelling tools to communicate the character.

I do think a lot of this lies in the execution (balance is a good theme, but nothing about her really portrays it heavily enough) and the idea not exploring how that works in League enough. And I'm pretty sure every single person who likes Karma in NA is talking about it in this thread The execution error is why we're redoing her visuals, and I know IronStylus was more involved on the art side there.


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Jordian

Senior Member

01-29-2013

You heard it right here Morello demanded a Anivia a new skin and its going to be the next Theme skin obviously because it's Morello's like fav champion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
ANIVIA IS GETTING BEST SKIN CUZ I LOVE ANIVIA AND SHES OP ALSO ITS LIKE SO AMAZING BECAUSE SHES MY FAV CHAMPION AND IM MORELLO

P.S. IRELIA IS GETTING NERF NEXT PATCH


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exe3

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Senior Member

01-29-2013

Still reading through the thread and Orianna is unpopular? Really? I love her. D: I also love Cass. Maybe I just like unpopular champions. >_> Just the other day I was saying to a friend i'd wish Riot would let Xypherous off the leash to make another crazy champ like Orianna. XD (Xypherous has commented in the past that you guys let him do whatever he wanted when he made Orianna)


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-29-2013
54 of 65 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exe3 View Post
Still reading through the thread and Orianna is unpopular? Really? I love her. D: I also love Cass. Maybe I just like unpopular champions. >_> Just the other day I was saying to a friend i'd wish Riot would let Xypherous off the leash to make another crazy champ like Orianna. XD (Xypherous has commented in the past that you guys let him do whatever he wanted when he made Orianna)
We let him do whatever he wants anyway :P We don't have a ton of management overhead here, Xypherous is working on the live team because that's what he wanted to do