Shyvana, outdated?

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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by Cevonis View Post
i dont know if your serious or sarcastic, but i'm gunna go with sarcastic.


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if you do atma's and health then you can do some damage and be tanky enough to last

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I think the main thing holding her back is the items as she really needs an armor or ap build with attack speed

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I just picked her up recently and I find her ganks aren't to great in the laning phase. I think her clear time is a little slower than udyrs but she has more tankyness, but perhaps less dps

No I'm just pointing out various things I have seen posted in this thread that are completely and totally wrong. You don't need atma's on Shyvana to get damage+tanky Witz End+Frozen Mallet provide plenty of both, while also providing some CC.

I see people saying Warmogs and then complaining about not having CC when Randuins Omen and sitting there saying "hey I give you health and armor and AoE CC which works great when you dive into the middle of the enemy team while getting an armor+MR boost that will increase my duration."

I see people talking about ganking with the single best counter jungler in the game, yes that is exactly what she is, as if she was Naut, or skarner. She is better at counter jungling than Mundo who's first clear damn near sends him back, she's better than Udyr who will have to depend on Phoenix for fast clears which reduces his ability to 1v1 people, she is better than Noc who is restricted on mana without blue, and has no escape, at least at 6 Shyvana can dragon to escape. Long story short no champ in the game beats Shyvana in a straight up 1v1 fight in the jungle, and if you are complaining about getting kited and losing jungle fights that way STOP CHASING it really isn't that hard. If they leave and try to kite just take their jungle and go on your merry way.

I have seen no mention of her speed around the map and her ability to completely dominate map control through wards and oracles, I have seen no mention of her ability to safely solo dragons as soon as wriggles is completed, I see no mention of how strong her turret dives can be with her ult. In fact all the things about her that makes her absolutely amazing are no where to be seen in this thread.

All I see is a bunch of people describing how they are badly building her and incorrectly playing her and then complaining she is weak. I'm willing to bet if you built Graves AP he would be terrible to but that doesn't make him outdated or in need of a change.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonagon View Post
Shyvana's E is her biggest problem. Its pretty useless. I doesn't do any damage, and since its a skillshot that can be blocked by minions, hitting your target can be real hard. It also has very little purpose when jungling.

I would prefer it be completely reworked, as a single-target nuke with some form of CC. It would need to scale off of something besides AP, something that Shy should actually build, like AD, health, or armor. By scaling it off of health or armor, she would benefit more from building tanky.

Also, I have noticed that when I use my ult on her, my enemies are not dragged the entire distance I travel. I would change it so that when Shyvana uses her ult on an enemy, they are pushed back past where Shy lands. This would make her Ganks much more effective.
Shyvana's Q was designed to be the nuke not the E, her E was designed for utility, that's why it reduces armor and that is why i say her Q needs a buff because it doesn't do that much damage anymore. At level 5 it scales 1:1 (100%) with AD, whereas a champion with a similar ability like vi's E not only does AOE damage but scales 115% AND scales 75% with AP as well as have 5-65 base damage, when compared this makes Shyvana's Q look like nothing.

If Vi and Shyvana have 100 AD and 50 AP Shyvana's Q would do 100 extra damage, Vi's E would do 217.5 extra damage, more than double shyvana's Q, and Vi can use her E much more frequent she can store up to 2 of them and recharges like ever 6 or 8 seconds
Or with Shyvana's Q being at level 5 and Vi's E being at level 1 Vi's would do 157.5 that is still more than 50% more damage than Shyvana could do at level 5.
To even come close to what Vi can do shyvana would need her Q to have a cooldown of 2 or 3 seconds.


Lets compare VI and Shyvana some more. Vi has a gap closer that does more damage than Shyvana's R when they both are maxed. Shyvana's R does 400 +70% AP that she doesn't build but if we were to go off the example that would be 435 damage from her R at max level. Vi's Q does does up to 340 +140% AD equaling out to 480 damage as well as being a gap closer. Vi's R does up to 450 +140% AD dealing 590 damage AND 375 +105% AD to nearby champions for 480 damage.

Shyvana's E does up to 260 +60% dealing 290 damage + 39+9% ap(42.51 damage) each hit Vi's W every 3 hits shreds armore by 20% makeing her deal more damage speeds her attack speed up to max 50% AND does up to 10%+ damage of their max health

Shyvana's W does 595+140% AD (735) for maximum duration and speeds up the movement speed by up to 50% with decaying effect, but the champion will probably not stay for the maximum duration.

Vi's passive gives her a shield based on health while Shyvana's passive does... well it doesn't really do anything at all just lowers her Q by half a second every time she attacks and extends the duration of burn out if she attacks.

Base on this comparison the only thing keeping Shyvana afloat is her W (burnout)
so if Vi is considered balanced, what does that make Shyvana?

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Shyvana

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Vi


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevonis View Post
Base on this comparison the only thing keeping Shyvana afloat is her W (burnout)
so if Vi is considered balanced, what does that make Shyvana?



Not Vi.

Vi does not provide AoE armor shread in a team fight. When building Frozen Mallet and/or Witz End Vi does not proc in on everyone in front of her with a Q. Vi's kit doesn't do a ton of AoE damage during team fights like Shyvana's does, instead Vi is meant to blow up a single target while providing a little AoE through her E.

Your comparision is horribly flawd as both of these champs are completely different in design as well as their team fight function. If Shyvana scaled like Vi did while still doing the AoE she does in dragon form she would be one of the most OP champs in the game.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
Not Vi.

Vi does not provide AoE armor shread in a team fight. When building Frozen Mallet and/or Witz End Vi does not proc in on everyone in front of her with a Q. Vi's kit doesn't do a ton of AoE damage during team fights like Shyvana's does, instead Vi is meant to blow up a single target while providing a little AoE through her E.

Your comparision is horribly flawd as both of these champs are completely different in design as well as their team fight function. If Shyvana scaled like Vi did while still doing the AoE she does in dragon form she would be one of the most OP champs in the game.
Vi's E and R is AoE and her Q is AoE to monster/minions.

Vi can jungle and solo top just like Shyvana use to. Vi's R is a gap closer with an AoE centered around the target, Shyvana's R is a gap closer with AoE in the line of travel. They are at the least somewhat similar.

Lets look at armor shred which both Shyvana and Vi has. (i know Shyvana can make her shred a CONE AoE) 100 Armor - 15% = 85 armor, 200 armor = 170 armor it does help but is not very impactful, this only benefits AD champions and there is no certainty that it will hit everybody. Shyvana's Q is a frontal cleave, you seem to be confused that Shyvana is true AoE and not mostly frontals besides her W.

Vi is a more recent champion so if we compare the 2 we can effectively look at the power inflation statically.

Vi's E can do 300+ damage to the enemy team and since she stores 2 charges you can double that to 600+ damage and that will do more damage than Shyvana's 15% armor shred can do even with the team, add Vi's R and you can tac on 450+ more damage to that 600 if the enemy team is stupid and groups up.

i am not saying make Shyvana like Vi nor am i saying she is just like Shyvana, what i am saying is look at the power inflation between the two, and since Vi is the most recent bruiser like Shyvana the comparison would make a lot more sense.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevonis View Post
Vi's E and R is AoE and her Q is AoE to monster/minions.

Vi can jungle and solo top just like Shyvana use to. Vi's R is a gap closer with an AoE centered around the target, Shyvana's R is a gap closer with AoE in the line of travel. They are at the least somewhat similar.

Lets look at armor shred which both Shyvana and Vi has. (i know Shyvana can make her shred a CONE AoE) 100 Armor - 15% = 85 armor, 200 armor = 170 armor it does help but is not very impactful, this only benefits AD champions and there is no certainty that it will hit everybody. Shyvana's Q is a frontal cleave, you seem to be confused that Shyvana is true AoE and not mostly frontals besides her W.

Vi is a more recent champion so if we compare the 2 we can effectively look at the power inflation statically.

Vi's E can do 300+ damage to the enemy team and since she stores 2 charges you can double that to 600+ damage and that will do more damage than Shyvana's 15% armor shred can do even with the team, add Vi's R and you can tac on 450+ more damage to that 600 if the enemy team is stupid and groups up.

i am not saying make Shyvana like Vi nor am i saying she is just like Shyvana, what i am saying is look at the power inflation between the two, and since Vi is the most recent bruiser like Shyvana the comparison would make a lot more sense.



Except she isn't like Vi really at all. If your arguement is "Vi does some AoE so she must be like Shyvana" then you should look at Darius, Garen, Lee Sin, Olaf, Pantheon, etc etc as they all have AoE in some fashion as well as some means of closing the gap, even if tw of them are mainly running after them with a move speed buff/slow popped. Just because a champ has some form of AoE and is a bruiser doesn't mean they are similiar enough to compare, especially when their purpose and function in team fights are so different.

I missed the 75% damage she does to those Vi knocks aside with her ult, however, that still leaves her with 2 abilities that are AoE in a team fight. Mean while in dragon form ALL of Shyvana's abilties are AoE, and yes it is in front of her but if you can't position yourself so that you are able to hit most enemies with it you really need learn how to position yourself.

Again Vi is designed to find a single target in a team fight, knock everyone else away while she blows it up. In a lot of aspects she is a bruiser assassin. Shyvana while she will focus squishier targets is going to look to put out as much damage as possible to the entire team during the team fight while her ult is up. As I said earlier if you gave her Vi's scaling she would be absolutely broken.

Let me just put it this way, it's father common to see a built Vi blow up squishies without using her full kit, it's also common to see her take tanks down fairly quickly due to her scaling health damage and single target armor shred. Now make all of that AoE...do you see why it would be broken? That is the thing when a champ has an AoE focus their over all damage is going to be less that someone who is designed to blow up single targets.

Also no Vi can't jungle anywhere near as effectively as Shyvana. She's reasonable in the jungle but has neither the speed around the map, nor really is she all that safe to counter jungle with early on like Shyvana, she also won't win a ton of 1v1 fights against champs like Noc who will just CC her. Shyvana can and does win those types of fights because in the early game she has the highest damage, she makes up for it by scaling slightly less, and then makes up for that by having a ton of AoE in team fights.


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Gadius

Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
No I'm just pointing out various things I have seen posted in this thread that are completely and totally wrong. You don't need atma's on Shyvana to get damage+tanky Witz End+Frozen Mallet provide plenty of both, while also providing some CC.

I see people saying Warmogs and then complaining about not having CC when Randuins Omen and sitting there saying "hey I give you health and armor and AoE CC which works great when you dive into the middle of the enemy team while getting an armor+MR boost that will increase my duration."

I see people talking about ganking with the single best counter jungler in the game, yes that is exactly what she is, as if she was Naut, or skarner. She is better at counter jungling than Mundo who's first clear damn near sends him back, she's better than Udyr who will have to depend on Phoenix for fast clears which reduces his ability to 1v1 people, she is better than Noc who is restricted on mana without blue, and has no escape, at least at 6 Shyvana can dragon to escape. Long story short no champ in the game beats Shyvana in a straight up 1v1 fight in the jungle, and if you are complaining about getting kited and losing jungle fights that way STOP CHASING it really isn't that hard. If they leave and try to kite just take their jungle and go on your merry way.

I have seen no mention of her speed around the map and her ability to completely dominate map control through wards and oracles, I have seen no mention of her ability to safely solo dragons as soon as wriggles is completed, I see no mention of how strong her turret dives can be with her ult. In fact all the things about her that makes her absolutely amazing are no where to be seen in this thread.

All I see is a bunch of people describing how they are badly building her and incorrectly playing her and then complaining she is weak. I'm willing to bet if you built Graves AP he would be terrible to but that doesn't make him outdated or in need of a change.
She is a fast jungler, and can counter jungle pretty well but it isn't guaranteed to work. Her options in my experience are this:

wraiths>red>blue>steal red
wraiths>red>steal red>blue

I'm not very experienced with her but in a game vs skarner I went wraiths>red>blue>steal red and was only able to steal his red because I used fireball to pull it in the bushes and wasn't caught. He literally was a step a way from me as I"m stealing his red! My point here is this; she cuts a few corners for an advantage, but she takes a huge risk. She wouldn't work in any competitive team as all you would have to do is have someone ward your red early, or better yet go invade her blue and take your red.


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Eiji788

Member

01-27-2013

i agree dat shyvana outdated , and she needs to be buffed
a lot of new junglers can replace her
in the view of damage , zed, kha zix and vi are better than her
in the view of speed of clean jungle, olaf and mundo are faster
in the view of gank, she is one of the weakest ganker among all the jungler


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
No I'm just pointing out various things I have seen posted in this thread that are completely and totally wrong. You don't need atma's on Shyvana to get damage+tanky Witz End+Frozen Mallet provide plenty of both, while also providing some CC.

I see people saying Warmogs and then complaining about not having CC when Randuins Omen and sitting there saying "hey I give you health and armor and AoE CC which works great when you dive into the middle of the enemy team while getting an armor+MR boost that will increase my duration."

I see people talking about ganking with the single best counter jungler in the game, yes that is exactly what she is, as if she was Naut, or skarner. She is better at counter jungling than Mundo who's first clear damn near sends him back, she's better than Udyr who will have to depend on Phoenix for fast clears which reduces his ability to 1v1 people, she is better than Noc who is restricted on mana without blue, and has no escape, at least at 6 Shyvana can dragon to escape. Long story short no champ in the game beats Shyvana in a straight up 1v1 fight in the jungle, and if you are complaining about getting kited and losing jungle fights that way STOP CHASING it really isn't that hard. If they leave and try to kite just take their jungle and go on your merry way.

I have seen no mention of her speed around the map and her ability to completely dominate map control through wards and oracles, I have seen no mention of her ability to safely solo dragons as soon as wriggles is completed, I see no mention of how strong her turret dives can be with her ult. In fact all the things about her that makes her absolutely amazing are no where to be seen in this thread.

All I see is a bunch of people describing how they are badly building her and incorrectly playing her and then complaining she is weak. I'm willing to bet if you built Graves AP he would be terrible to but that doesn't make him outdated or in need of a change.
Somehow i missed this post.
Yes her movement is amazing
Yes she is the best counter jungle in the game
And yes she can 1v1 anyone in the jungle, why Burnout it can do 800+ damage in 3 or 4 seconds at level 5, that is her only real damage dealer, and since no one seems to realizes that they stay in it's range and wonders why they get owned in 1v1. That and no minions are there to block her E so they take 15% more damage and yes her Q helps.

The newer champions are stronger they can do more damage then last year champions that is why not just Shyvana but at least 5 other champions are becoming outdated, it's just more obvious in Shyvana's case due to her lack on synergy with the new changes.

Shyvana use to be an amazing solo top, i could win 9 out of 10 games and carried at least 8 of those 10 games. i can't do that now because the other solo counters Shyvana even the ones i use to dominate (Shyvana can still kick Teemos ass burnout FTW). I could win maybe 3 out of 10 in the laneing phase if i am lucky. At level 3 vi can kick shyvana's ass even with standing in her burnout. Riven has always countered Shyvana. If Darius plays smart until level 6 he could win laneing even if you get 3 kills on him

Shyvana is getting less and less tanky, because all the new champion are doing more and more damage. the passive on her R pretty much has been offset by the new champions. The MR on her R's passive is useless thanks to liandrys, it's also offset by sorc's shoes, abysal, and other commonly used items. You are forced to build tanky if you want to live more than 3 second in a team fight, it would be a lot more useful if her R has a shield that works like malphites passive when she is in dragon form only stronger instead of simply doubling the bonus.

As Shyvana, even if i get fed i am not scary. if kat gets fed you **** your pants, if Darius gets fed you run, if most other champions get fed you have to do something about it, but if Shyvana gets fed it's like "so what". Shyvana can easily get kills in team fights if you build tanky, why? burnout. i fought against another Shyvana who get most kills in a team fight (9 kills), and we was forced to focus Vayne who had only 3 kills. most other champions with 6 more kills than their carry and you would have to focus them. if that shyvana had built damage instead of tanky and she would have died in 2 seconds, but i didn't even noticed the presence of Shyvana in the team fight, that is how far she has fallen.


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Titanomagnus

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Why are you all comparing Vi to Shyvana exactly to the letter?

Of course their abilities aren't the same!

Derp, they are different champs with different themes in mind, so of course their abilities are going to work differentl!!!!


What's true, however, is that Vi is like an outright BETTER version of Shyvana.

Look at Vi's abilities:

Her passive- I'd rather have this than Shyv's for what she does.
Her Q gives her a controlled gap-closer that hurts like a mother on coffee beans.
Her W is an awesome passive that makes taking more than 2 hits from her almost a fatality!
Her E is hands down one of the most powerful abilities that had forumers screaming 'OP' for weeks after release.

Her R is an auto-seek gap closer that knocks other things out of the way and delivers a smack-down on your target.


ALL of these are better than Shyvana's abilities, they're just better, no matter what you say or how you put it.

Buffing Shyvana's abilities little or a LOT wouldn't make a difference; what Shyvana needs is a total REVAMP to compete with champions like Vi (there are others, but Vi is a prime example), because Vi is just a better version of Shyvana.


Thanx for reading.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanomagnus View Post
Why are you all comparing Vi to Shyvana exactly to the letter?

Of course their abilities aren't the same!

Derp, they are different champs with different themes in mind, so of course their abilities are going to work differentl!!!!


What's true, however, is that Vi is like an outright BETTER version of Shyvana.

Look at Vi's abilities:

Her passive- I'd rather have this than Shyv's for what she does.
Her Q gives her a controlled gap-closer that hurts like a mother on coffee beans.
Her W is an awesome passive that makes taking more than 2 hits from her almost a fatality!
Her E is hands down one of the most powerful abilities that had forumers screaming 'OP' for weeks after release.

Her R is an auto-seek gap closer that knocks other things out of the way and delivers a smack-down on your target.


ALL of these are better than Shyvana's abilities, they're just better, no matter what you say or how you put it.

Buffing Shyvana's abilities little or a LOT wouldn't make a difference; what Shyvana needs is a total REVAMP to compete with champions like Vi (there are others, but Vi is a prime example), because Vi is just a better version of Shyvana.


Thanx for reading.
Well, you said it better than i did. The fact that i compared Shyvana to Vi is 1 to point out the power inflation among bruisers and 2 Vi is most certainly a better version of Shyvana. i never said to buff her a LOT or a little i did hint at some re-works and some ideas though.