Vi's ult not QSSable.

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sergeantpickle

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Vi suffers from the same thing Lee Sin does.

She is super freaking fun to play and that gets champions nerfed.


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Gorsz

Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergeantpickle View Post
Vi suffers from the same thing Lee Sin does.

She is super freaking fun to play and that gets champions nerfed.

Um no, lee sin doesnt get nerfed because hes "fun to play"


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gypsylord

Champion Designer

01-27-2013
4 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utensil View Post
I think it all sounds pretty simple, I'd make the whole thing QSS-able except I'd speed up her ult timer (because, for one, it is pretty slow) and then make a radius in which the "slamming you into the ground" did damage if you were within a radius of it. You could make the damage aspect a 2 parter, half with the impact of hero + hero, and the half with hero slamming into ground.

If you sped up the initial charge and made that non-QSS-able then they would at least receive some damage. Think of it like Malz ult, if they QSS in time they can run away and be dealt only half damage, should the same not be said for Vi?
Malz and WW ult have actually been "fixed" to have a leash range after being QSS'd. You can remove the CC but not the damage.

I actually did have Vi's ult dealing damage in two parts at one time. One tick on the uppercut and and one tick on the slam. Ended up making the ult feel really bad. Splitting the damage in to two small chunks instead of one big one just wasn't satisfying. People kept telling me, "the R is cool and all but it feels like it doesn't do anything. PLZ BUFF." This was back when it did 600 damage.

In the end, Vi's ult being not QSS able was a design decision. That's why it's a knockup. Vi gets to have a guaranteed 1.25 second duration CC on a target once per teamfight. It's one of the reasons you'd pick her over characters like Malphite. Malph and Amumu have the AoE 1.5-2 second lockdowns. In most cases their ults are far stronger than Vi's, but they can be flashed out of. If you just HAVE to long-range stun a guy without fail Vi is the pick for you. Just make sure your team is there to back you up. As strong as she is, she's not tanky enough to 1v5 when the Ezreal she ults Arcane Shifts over a wall into the middle of his team.


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsz View Post
Um no, lee sin doesnt get nerfed because hes "fun to play"
in effect it does. He's fun to play, so good people play him, people don't like getting stomped by good people, so he gets nerfed.


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gypsylord

Champion Designer

01-27-2013
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
If it was QSSable, it could possibly work that she charges simply to that area.

But to be honest, making the ult QSSable would seem a little strange thematically.
(Does she just forget who she was charging?)

If there were any changes to her ult, lowered base damage may be useful.

Or maybe it does less damage to her target if she hits people along the way.

I mean, she's got more base damage and .1 less scaling than an assassin ult, and it's nearly unstoppable.

You can straight up Flash at least half of Talon ult, and you can QSS all of Zed ult.
Good insight here. Vi's ult being QSS'able during the charge would feel very disorienting and awful for the Vi player. You charge a guy, he QSS's, now you're halfway to him but you stopped for some reason and now you're next to their Ali and you aren't CC immune anymore and you don't know what happened and...PULVERIZE!!! Yeah, would feel really bad.

The base damage on R would be a great thing to hit if Vi turns out to be overpowered (still to be determined). Hits her best case without impacting her worst case too severely. Vi shouldn't be able to single combo you to death unless she's super fed.

Also, your power creep comments got me wondering how our old champions perform compared to our new ones. Brought up LoLKing winrate data and plotted it vs. champion release order.

Chart 1 is all champs (Karma is the only dot missing as she's below 40%)

Chart 2 is "fighters." All the champs who want to get in your face and hit you with stuff. Tanks, Melee Carries, Assassins, and Bruisers (AD and AP) all included. Excluded the pure supports (Leona, Ali, Blitz, Thresh)

Edit: Larger number on X axis = later release date

Take the charts for what you will, win rates don't necessarily equate to a champion's overall power level. Olaf is below 50% right now and yet is being permabanned/picked in tournaments.

List for chart 2:
Jax, Warwick, Master Yi, Sion, Singed, Tryndamere, Amumu, Cho'Gath, Rammus, Gangplank, Malphite, Dr. Mundo, Nasus, Shaco, Udyr, Poppy, Pantheon, Shen, Garen, Olaf, Xin Zhao, Irelia Trundle, Renekton, Maokai, Jarvan IV, Nocturne, Lee Sin, Rumble, Yorick, Wukong, Skarner, Talon, Riven, Shyvana, Fizz, Volibear, Sejuani, Nautilus, Fiora, Hecarim, Darius, Jayce, Diana Rengar, Kha'Zix, Elise, Zed, Vi

Probably forgot someone...Already realized Akali is missing


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsylord View Post
Also, your power creep comments got me wondering how our old champions perform compared to our new ones. Brought up LoLKing winrate data and plotted it vs. champion release order.

Chart 1 is all champs (Karma is the only dot missing as she's below 40%)

Chart 2 is "fighters." All the champs who want to get in your face and hit you with stuff. Tanks, Melee Carries, and Bruisers (AD and AP) all included. Excluded the pure supports (Leona, Ali, Blitz, Thresh)

Take the charts for what you will, win rates don't necessarily equate to a champion's overall power level. Olaf is below 50% right now and yet is being permabanned/picked in tournaments.
You are quite correct that win-rate isn't the whole story.

I'll also surmise that the larger the bottom number the newer the champion based upon the temporal concordance at 0. (For reference, that should be clarified in graphics.)

The clear issue you might imagine with win-rate is that if there is always a Bruiser on each team, one of those Bruisers will always lose.

So as a class (or champion) gets more overpowered, the win-rates will be pushed more to 50%.

Xypherous could talk about this a bit, perhaps.


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Mhm916

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsylord View Post
Good insight here. Vi's ult being QSS'able during the charge would feel very disorienting and awful for the Vi player. You charge a guy, he QSS's, now you're halfway to him but you stopped for some reason and now you're next to their Ali and you aren't CC immune anymore and you don't know what happened and...PULVERIZE!!! Yeah, would feel really bad.
That's not a good insight. When Vi is charging towards you(aka a "DASH" skill), that is not a CC. QSS removes "CC". Unless you're making QSS a god-mode item that removes all champs dashing to you(hey Alistar, I just pressed QSS and you're not gonna complete that W so HAH), then there really is no discussion on it what-so-ever.

And like you said before, it's basically the SAME thing as Naut's ult except it requires you to be there in person and it doesn't knock up everyone along the way while the projectile(aka herself, unlike naut's ult) is flying to the target.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhm916 View Post
That's not a good insight. When Vi is charging, that is not a CC. QSS removes "CC". Unless you're making QSS a god-mode item that removes all champs dashing to you, then there really is no discussion about it what-so-ever.
There is always discussion about it, unless you're trying to be myopic.

QSS removes Urgot dashing to your team.

QSS removes Mordekaiser's ult, even though it isn't CC.

"Unique - Quicksilver: Removes all debuffs from your champion. 90 second cooldown."

Whether something is QSSable or not is a per-champion design decision, not a global blackout.


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Ithrowrocksatchi

Senior Member

01-27-2013

I blocked her knockup with Noc's Shield but thats i dont think you can QSS her ult


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Voice 1

Senior Member

01-27-2013

This is like the worst form of power creep.

I find this completely bs as a Morde player and a former WW player.