@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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GosuHooves

Member

01-24-2013

Any chance Blade of the Ruined king may be slated for some tweaking to make it more effective against the encroaching league of warmogs.


Taking into account its base stats alone and leaving out its passive for a moment it feels like it doesn't deal enough damage on its own to be useful especailly for it being within a hundred gold or so of a blood thirster. the only reason its a situational improvement over a second blood thirster is due to the % of current health damage.

Any chance we might see it turned into a % of max health like madreds was before it or are you too afraid it would stack too well with champs who deal % damage like Vayne and Kog'Maw. Cause from personal experience Attack speed on Hit Vayne is pretty effective although with the cost of Blade of the Ruined king taken into account it definitely becomes very cost inefficient if your not getting a lot of farm or kills.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GammerHooves View Post
Any chance Blade of the Ruined king may be slated for some tweaking to make it more effective against the encroaching league of warmogs.


Taking into account its base stats alone and leaving out its passive for a moment it feels like it doesn't deal enough damage on its own to be useful especailly for it being within a hundred gold or so of a blood thirster. the only reason its a situational improvement over a second blood thirster is due to the % of current health damage.

Any chance we might see it turned into a % of max health like madreds was before it or are you too afraid it would stack too well with champs who deal % damage like Vayne and Kog'Maw. Cause from personal experience Attack speed on Hit Vayne is pretty effective although with the cost of Blade of the Ruined king taken into account it definitely becomes very cost inefficient if your not getting a lot of farm or kills.
Play Udyr.

You buy BotRK.

Olaf buys Warmogs.

Watch the ensuring fight*

*Due to the slaughter that will entail it can't actually be called a fight.


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Kelly Price

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Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Play Udyr.

You buy BotRK.

Olaf buys Warmogs.

Watch the ensuring fight*

*Due to the slaughter that will entail it can't actually be called a fight.

Except not really because Olaf just runs away, popping Ragnarok if necessary.


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Imogen Poots

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes, if you want to get specific, this is true. However, if you want to get specific in the context of this discussion then the correct comparison is to compare health itemization, or buying health items compared to shields / drains / regeneration.

The core here is that buying health does have an added conditional - it only takes effect when you're going back to base for the most part - you cannot add health in the field by buying health. Shields / Drains / Regeneration effects are essentially always up - the act of buying health, however, only happens once and typically cannot be replenished until you go back to base.

So while, yes, I agree that they are all health here if you want to get really specific - you also have to understand that when we talk about health in terms of itemization - you have to compare the act of buying health rather than health, the general stat.
Your argument makes no sense. That's not the correct comparison because pretty much all the defensive stats we are talking about here are available from character kit and from the shop as well as other sources. When it comes to your resulting survivability in combat, all that matters is how long you survive under the conditions given.

For the purpose of multiplicative scaling, sustain is still on the same multiplicative plane as health in so far as being multiplicative with resistances goes. To put it another way, multiplicative scaling with multiple forms of additive defensive stats does not make resistance a superstat.

And no, for the purpose of adding survivability sustain is not always up. The health provided by sustain for the purpose of adding survivability is conditional and not "essentially always up." It is not intrinsically superior to health. If you are stun locked or otherwise unable to deal damage, your drain is off and provides zero extra survivability. Your regen similarly may not even provide any survivability at all if you are bursted down in a team fight. Or it may only provide a very small amount of survivability, while under better conditions it can provide a lot.

All of that is beside the point anyway. It doesn't matter under what condition the health is available for adding to your survivability, it is still all health insofar as being multiplicative with resistances goes: It's a single sum. It no more makes resistance a superstat than MR from Ragnarok and MR from Wit's End's on hit effects make health a superstat, simply because they add to your survivability multiplicatively with health.


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Cloud Potato

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Play Udyr.

You buy BotRK.

Olaf buys Warmogs.

Watch the ensuring fight*

*Due to the slaughter that will entail it can't actually be called a fight.
Olaf scales on Health. Pick someone who doesn't and it might be a fairer comparison.


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dogbiter

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Kelly Price View Post
Except not really because Olaf just runs away, popping Ragnarok if necessary.
that's what udyr does too. atleast with most people on his OP days. "oh, ****'s going wrong" np bearstance stun and run away


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Sir Spooty

Junior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Theoretically, this is why Thornmail still exists. Theoretically.
Did you ever play with the idea of thornmail applying a grievous wounds when it returns its damage? Or maybe having an interaction with lifesteal specifically so that it doesn't horribly interfere with characters with innate regen like mundo?

It seems that right now with penetration being so effective you don't buy armor items for their actual armor values as much as you do the added utility. I buy randuin's and/or frozen heart when there are a lot of attack speed based champions on the other team (this includes champions building hybrid/on-hit builds).

All of the armor items right now have a lot of utility packed into them with the exceptions being thornmail and maybe sunfire cape (if you don't count the pushing power it gives you). Would it be a bad thing to extend this kind of utility to thornmail or are its problems more deeply rooted than that?


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Cloud Potato

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Sir Spooty View Post
Did you ever play with the idea of thornmail applying a grievous wounds when it returns its damage? Or maybe having an interaction with lifesteal specifically so that it doesn't horribly interfere with characters with innate regen like mundo?

It seems that right now with penetration being so effective you don't buy armor items for their actual armor values as much as you do the added utility. I buy randuin's and/or frozen heart when there are a lot of attack speed based champions on the other team (this includes champions building hybrid/on-hit builds).

All of the armor items right now have a lot of utility packed into them with the exceptions being thornmail and maybe sunfire cape (if you don't count the pushing power it gives you). Would it be a bad thing to extend this kind of utility to thornmail or are its problems more deeply rooted than that?
When it comes to utility every stat brings it except AD. AP is famous for it; Health items and MR items are all based around utility too. Even AS has utility now with Runaans, Shiv, and Zephyr.

However, you don't buy Armor for utility. You buy it to reduce damage. The utility is there so that you don't have every champion buying the same Armor item. The reason why Health isn't like this (and AD to an extent) is because it is the main source of survivability now, as well as the fact that Warmogs has sustain on it (which is why BT is the most bought AD item). Health is the stat you stack to survive, and you buy Armor and MR at a certain point, just like how AD is the stat for Carries to stack, and they buy AS at a certain point.


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Whisla

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

I think the problem here with strategic variety is that it's pretty hard to get 5 people who've never met before to decide on a strategy without making those strategies kind of self-contained. I could be off though - I will readily admit that grand strategy is actually not something I'm particularly good at - or something that I've particularly researched. I should actually try to delve into this more when I have time.
Xyph this is the only real prob i have with Riots thought process. "Its hard for 5 pugs to do something so we just wont put the options in there" This game really needs more "options" when it comes to playstyles items are a good start but team comps is what riot now needs to look into. Giveing certian combos a great early synergy but bad late would be a great start, por simply just designing kits to be less "Solo" play and more "If i do this with him itll be awesome". The old kat amu ult combo use to be one.

My favorite example of this is Tuskar from dota, he snowballs with centar and bam fun times. Alittle op at start but come mid to late game if you pulled that **** w/o whole team it would be an instant death. I think Lol needs some of this kind of play to give it that extra layer people have been begging for.


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Goumindong

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Spend three thousand gold in lane on armor - what does that get you? 4 Chain vests, or 160 armor.

If you had 1000 health, you would be multiplying your EHP by 160%. If you spend three thousand gold on health, you would be multiplying your EHP by 100%.

Armor wins here - especially if they have flat resistances. The more flat penetration your opponent's have, the more armor wins out in this case.

Not quite seeing it here - they are actually pretty similar in terms of efficiency early on.
As long as we're being nitpicky about things:

1) If you're going to compare gold efficiency you can't compare non-upgraded raw item purchases to upgraded item purchases. Much of the value in upgraded item purchases comes in the upgrade bonus and not in the base stats themselves.

Warmogs for instance, if purchased with 1000 base HP, has 1080 gold worth of HP5 stuck on it in addition to the 2500 gold worth of health.

2) If you're going to consider secondary attributes of the enemy it helps to not ignore the ones which are detrimental to your argument. Which is in this case % armor pen and the armor that someone has already.

To compare more fully: Lets use someone with comparatively low armor: Teemo

When Teemo has 1000 health (level 8 roughly) he will have (armor yellows, no armor items) about 56 armor.

With 3000 gold worth of health items he has 2240 HP and 56 armor, giving him ~3494 Effective HP versus physical damage and ~3136 vs magic damage(assuming 40 total MR from flat or scaling blues)

With 3000 gold worth of armor items he has 1040 HP and 216 armor giving him ~3286 effective health vs physical damage and 1456 vs magic.

The effect only gets worse when we consider champions with better armor scaling, any sort of innate defense, or if the enemy has any kind of % armor shred or penetration. With only a Cleaver(with Apen Reds and 5 from masteries) the HP teemo will have 11.64 armor after shred. Giving him an effective health of 2500.736. The armor teemo will have 122 armor after shred giving him an effective health of 2308. The raw effective health hap has only diminished slightly but the % effective health gap has increased significantly in favor of health. This evaluation gets even worse if the enemy stacks enough penetration to reduce you to zero armor because after zero armor penetration makes no difference thus increasing the value of health even further over purchasing armor.


As it stands the most gold efficient way to avoid physical damage is straight health stacking. I do not believe that the game should be balanced in this way. I believe the ideal balance is one where if you want to defend against mages you build MR, if you want to defend against physical damage characters you build armor and if you want to defend against both then you buy health.

In short, armor does not win.

Quote:
I'm actually pretty sure that armor isn't a useless "noob trap" at the moment - we've merely adjusted the time period which armor starts becoming relevant too far in the opposite direction. Randuin's Omen is objectively the best anti-carry item in the game, for example, in no large part due to it's combination of armor / health / as debuff - something that it wouldn't accomplish with health / as slows alone.
Randuins is great because of the Move Speed and AS debuff and health. The armor is spinkles on the frosting. As shown above the 500 health is much more valuable than the 75 armor.

Quote:
This might be true - but if you need an arbitrary damage distinction limitation to get a entire class of characters to be played - I'm pretty sure there are some flaws in it.
The arbitrary damage distinction (in this case, physical/magical) exists in order to provide specific counter plays to champions and team compositions without allowing those counter plays to extend to the entire enemy team(unless the enemy team decides to let itself be counter played). So long as you have two, you can achieve this. As you add arbitrary damage distinctions you do gain counter play availability but you also make the game less tractable. Whatever the optimal number of damage types is, its fairly certainly not one.

But health, relative to other defenses is negating the counter play. The best defensive option against all comers is to buy health... The arbitrary damage distinction no longer matters when building for all the damage types dominates building against the specific. In my view this largely exists because of the penetration flip. Rather than having flat get less effective as you stacked %, flat penetration is becoming increasingly valuable as you gain % penetration. And, as noted by you, that flat and % penetration are always multiplicative statistics on top of your normal damage it will always be the case that damage champions will want to build these near regardless of the armor or MR values of enemy champions.

Consider a 400 armor champion in Season 2 against a full penetration/shred build. Counter against counter. Yomuu's, Fully stacked cleaver, Brut, 25/10% pen from masteries/runes, and last whisper. Four items, quints, reds, offensive rather than defensive masteries...

The enemy would have had 159 armor. Consider that today that same 400 armor champion would have with just the Whisper, Cleaver, and masteries(I.E. AD runes) 165 armor. Two items, offensive masteries no armor penetration/shred abilities.

This is what has made armor useless

Edit: In addition there are upgrading falloffs. With health, you can get in a single item 2500 gold worth of HP 2650 gold. With the "hard physical damage counter item" thornmail you get 1800 gold worth of armor. Upgrade to any other armor item and you're way way way behind in tankyness and sustain... unless that armor item also has health on it. The bonus health items are not burdened with gold "wasted" on non-sustain/tanky stats.

Quote:
The core here is that buying health does have an added conditional - it only takes effect when you're going back to base for the most part - you cannot add health in the field by buying health
Unless you have a warmogs, in which case for every 1000 HP you get a free 540 gold in HP5.