Morello You Got Your Wish...

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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
People are building her just fine, this is not a valid reason for her winrate being so low.
So if all Talon players would build AP and have a low win rate, he would get buffed?

Playing he wrong is definitely a reason for lower win rates.
Being only decent early game and great mid game (where you either split push or team fight) means she is more team dependant. What means solo queue will mean a lower win rate for her. Sure, she can 1v1 without problems, but her biggest plays are in teamfights.

If you mean TriForce, GA, Wit's End and BC are all that great for her.
Sure, the items are good, but why whould you need more MR when you can build more HP and your team gets a Bullwark?
The statistics show that there are good builds with her, but still too many people are using the old build (in around 60% of the games with her people want to get a TriForce ASAP).

And flask on Irelia? after the nerf it is not worth it.

And no Doran's blade late game? There should be one in your inventory left. IT is the best early game item for her. If you have the money, Dorans blade + Zehpyr will give you a lot of offensive power and sustain. Or Warmogs.
Dorans blade is now way better for her than the old one. She doesn't build a lot of AD, so the old % LS was bad for her. the new flat thing is way better when you take some AS. And cause she builds not much AD, it will never get worse than the old dorans (like it happens for ADC or AD casters).

The problem is not what you are building but what you are building in certain situations.
You have no ONE OVERALL build that works always anymore (except for the HP builds).


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Ordo Irelius

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
And no Doran's blade late game? There should be one in your inventory left. IT is the best early game item for her. If you have the money, Dorans blade + Zehpyr will give you a lot of offensive power and sustain. Or Warmogs.
Dorans blade is now way better for her than the old one. She doesn't build a lot of AD, so the old % LS was bad for her. the new flat thing is way better when you take some AS. And cause she builds not much AD, it will never get worse than the old dorans (like it happens for ADC or AD casters).
You will rarely get to keep a doran past mid game, simply because it takes up one vital spot in your inventory, which you will need.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
Are people building Rabadon's Deathcap on Irelia or something I'm missing? You can see what they are building on the stats page. Top items are TF, Wit's End, Warmog's, Phage, and Zephyr. Looks fine to me.
50% TriForce + 22% Phage (with the amount of Frozen Mallets used, probably 20% of the phages should be TriForces) => in 70% of the games, people want to get a TriForce. With the average duration of the games, it should be the first or second big item. So in 70% of her games people want to get TriForce way too fast.
You need Warmogs / Sunfire if you want to be tanky or Stinger / Wit's end for more DPS.
Phage is too expensive alone. You need AS to make use of the proc now or enough luck.
Sheen alone is not good for her.
Zeal has crit. Not bad, but not the best thing.

=> TriForce will cripple your early game too much if you are having problems with your enemy. And without Dorans, you won't have a too good early game.
So in a lot of cases you probably don't want Triforce that early. And if you build Warmogs / Sunfire / Frozen Mallet, Wit's End / Zehpyr will be way better for more dmg + utility/g than TriForce.

Don't forget that you are wasting gold for crit and and mana.

TriForce is not bad, but not as good as it was in S2. But a lot of people are still using it as we would have S2.
I was very surprised that people needed the last tournaments to realize how OP warmogs and sunfire cape actually are (HP items).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordo Irelius View Post
You will rarely get to keep a doran past mid game, simply because it takes up one vital spot in your inventory, which you will need.
you got 1 slot for wards, 1 for pots, 1 for boots and 2 for your two most important core items. One open for Dorans
then you won't need pots anymore (you have Dorans + your AA).
=> You can get boots and 3 late game items and still keep Dorans blade (building the 3rd item could be harder then, so you could sell dorans).

But if you don't intend to keep Dorans blade till late game at least, then you are probably wasting gold with buying it. The sell price got reduced, so you will lose a lot of gold.


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Ralik098

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
So if all Talon players would build AP and have a low win rate, he would get buffed?
Are people building Rabadon's Deathcap on Irelia or something I'm missing? You can see what they are building on the stats page. Top items are TF, Wit's End, Warmog's, Phage, and Zephyr. Looks fine to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Playing he wrong is definitely a reason for lower win rates.
Being only decent early game and great mid game (where you either split push or team fight) means she is more team dependant. What means solo queue will mean a lower win rate for her. Sure, she can 1v1 without problems, but her biggest plays are in teamfights.
No, lol. Look at her plat winrates, if anything she seems to be doing worse the higher up the Elo bracket you go. Are you seriously implying that these people don't know what they are doing? Furthermore, she is not a good team fighter. I get why people would think this since her passive is sort of made to help her in team fights, but she excels in 1v1/3v3, in other words, she is good in small skirmishes. People with no real utility and primarily single target damage are not usually good in team fights unless you are a late game AD carry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
If you mean TriForce, GA, Wit's End and BC are all that great for her.
Sure, the items are good, but why whould you need more MR when you can build more HP and your team gets a Bullwark?
The statistics show that there are good builds with her, but still too many people are using the old build (in around 60% of the games with her people want to get a TriForce ASAP).
Again no, the statistics show the exact opposite of what you are saying. People are correctly dropping GA from their build and replacing it with a Warmog's and/or a Zephyr. Triforce isn't as good in S2 but it is still one of the better options for her for offensive items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
And flask on Irelia? after the nerf it is not worth it.

And no Doran's blade late game? There should be one in your inventory left. IT is the best early game item for her. If you have the money, Dorans blade + Zehpyr will give you a lot of offensive power and sustain. Or Warmogs.
Dorans blade is now way better for her than the old one. She doesn't build a lot of AD, so the old % LS was bad for her. the new flat thing is way better when you take some AS. And cause she builds not much AD, it will never get worse than the old dorans (like it happens for ADC or AD casters).
Why in the world would you want a Doran's Blade for late game? Doran's Blade is not the best early game item for her, you constantly overrate it. It does nothing but delay your build and is only worth building if you are in a very tough matchup and need the cheap stats. It isn't worth delaying your other items and you are probably better off just buying a ruby crystal in every situation. The flat HP per hit is only better up to a certain point which you easily pass at some point in the game and it returns so little that it isn't even noticeable. Not to mention that sustain is practically worthless outside of the laning phase. You keep harping on Doran's Blade as if it is the savior of all these AS/resits nerfs, I have no idea how anyone can truly believe this.

I don't know if Flask is still worth it or not after the nerfs (I suspect it is, Flask is so good), but these stats are from the past month when it was clearly the best starting item for her. I know I said that Doran's isn't worth it usually because it delays your build, but Flask is an exception. The sustain on it was just way to good to ignore, plus it let you buy wards and even more potions. The starting price of Doran's Blade doesn't allow for any of this and the sustain on it is unnoticeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
The problem is not what you are building but what you are building in certain situations.
You have no ONE OVERALL build that works always anymore (except for the HP builds).
You directly contradict yourself.


I do think that the next patch will help quite a bit since Warmog's will almost certainly receive a nerf. Plus resists may get a small buff, we'll see. The rampant stacking of HP is making her true damage weak. I hear Cleaver (again) and Bloodthirster are getting nerfed also?


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Ordo Irelius

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Dorans on Irelia is only good as a "bridge" item or when the lane is very tough like ralik said. Really no point in getting it if ahead.

The thing about triforce is that, although still good on Irelia, really isn't worth rushing anymore, as health stacking screws that build path over so much. The best early game build path right now imo is getting some sort of damage (zerk greaves, phage, or maybe stinger) then rush health, lots and lots of health.

Wit's end + zephyr providing more damage and utillity than TF is simply untrue. Irelia relies a lot on sheen procs to do any significant damage late game without lots of AD, and sheen procs allow you to double Q during mid game. Not to mention, slow proc + MS.


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Ordo Irelius

Senior Member

01-23-2013

bump


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Ralik098

Senior Member

01-23-2013

bump


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KH Roxas

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Bump


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Ordo Irelius

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Not a single red seems to be talking about Irelia. Can we at least have a good discussion riot?


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Ralik098

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordo Irelius View Post
Not a single red seems to be talking about Irelia. Can we at least have a good discussion riot?
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3024138