@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
That's like Hashinshin 101: nobody likes him, but he's not wrong.
He can be. It wasn't until like the end of S2 where people in my Normal elo started actually stacking resists. I didn't really get to play mid anymore at that point because of the "I called it it's mine" thing. If I played AD, I was playing an AD that could use the old Black Cleaver just as well (often better), but I was playing Support more than anything.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-24-2013
26 of 27 Riot Posts

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The problem with burst mages is that Anivia is a burst mage. What can Leblanc possibly do other than launch nuclear warheads to compete with a mage who does similar damage on top of having support level utility?

And when leblanc DID launch nuclear warheads it wasn't very fun to fight.
Clearly, what you're telling me here is the Leblanc's spells should be area of effect and apply radiation to her enemies.

Quote:
But you did just nerf shields by a significant amount. Does this not affect balance? (Indirect Janna nerf Q_Q)
Depends on who she's shielding - but yes, Supports support fighters less now. I'm not sure how much that nerfs Janna because well, hopefully she's shielding someone who can make use of the AD.

Quote:
Why does the "just build a negatron cloak nab" argument work against Leblanc but not against Talon?
It doesn't - that's why Leblanc is at where she's at.

Actually, for AP versus AP - Chalice or Hexdrinker are the better comparisons - cheap, easy to build, very strong early and fits well within builds.

Quote:
Start off by enabling more ways to win the game than the standard 40 minute lane-gank-siege-teamfight-baron progression. Enable push teams, earlygame gank teams, lategame turtle teams etc like Dota. This creates asymmetric goals (one team wants to push and win early, the other wants to turtle and win late) and therefore more dimensions for champion variety.
I think the problem here with strategic variety is that it's pretty hard to get 5 people who've never met before to decide on a strategy without making those strategies kind of self-contained. I could be off though - I will readily admit that grand strategy is actually not something I'm particularly good at - or something that I've particularly researched. I should actually try to delve into this more when I have time.


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PsionicApe

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
You know, at some point it'd actually be good to do an entire sweep of what we want spell shields to affect and revise it to like.. respect that.

Although the single target effect doesn't actually solve much - mostly because of things like Karthus who.. doesn't actually deal single target effects.

I think I mentioned this earlier before but I think I completely invalidated Catalyst with Flask. Oops.
Not completely. I will still build it sometimes, for example, as a source of sustain (especially the mana) when I am playing a jungler like Trundle. The gold I save not finishing my lantern and instead staying with Madreds goes towards the purchase, making it less expensive than it seems. The main issue (in addition to the spellshield issues) is that Banshee is quite overpriced for what it gives, and the catalyst usually becomes an Ohmwrecker in the rare event it isn't sold.


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WhackedRak

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Why was the decision made to take the lifesteal component out of Executioners Calling and replace it with 25 AD?


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Clearly, what you're telling me here is the Leblanc's spells should be area of effect and apply radiation to her enemies.
or you could just go the shyvana route and make her R take her abilities and make them all AoE based. 8 chains shoot out of her in every direction! A leblanc clone shoots in 8 directions and nobody knows which one is the real one.


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Afflictid

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
The problem with burst mages is that Anivia is a burst mage. What can Leblanc possibly do other than launch nuclear warheads to compete with a mage who does similar damage on top of having support level utility?

And when leblanc DID launch nuclear warheads it wasn't very fun to fight.
Well perhaps a bigger AP overhaul is in order. AP's with extreme utility like Anivia and Orianna should take some damage hits OR the non-extreme utility burst mages need to be brought up. I'm a fan of the latter, AP is struggling right now and nerfing utility mage damage would knock them out too... then there is NO viable AP. I'd say bring up the non-utility.


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Pushover

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Twin Shadows will add to your core initiation / Spirit Visage will greatly help if you have a strong self-heal (Hecarim or Alistar, for example) and Abyssal Sceptre always helps your team and yourself, depending on who you are.

Although, yeah - I do suspect that Negatron is in an odd spot - it feels like it should be cheaper and give less MR so that its upgrades could also be slightly cheaper or give more MR. The build path for the MR items providing most of the MR you need seems to be strangling how good the final MR item can be sometimes. Not sure.
Well, it's partly to do with the good options for MR items -- namely, the lack of them. Items that provide MR:
  • Chalice/Athene's - most tanks don't need the mana regen
  • Aegis/Bulwark - goto item, as I said, counters 2 magic pen items from the AP.
  • Banshees - The mana is rarely useful at the point it is bought, the passive isn't too useful on a front line champion who gets poked a bunch. Doesn't provide much additional MR by upgrading
  • Hexdrinker/Maw - Great on bruisers, alternative to Bulwark for them.
  • Wits End - Now more expensive for 10 less MR. Used to be good on some attack speed based tanky champions like Irelia or Shen, now it's just not worth the price.
  • Spirit Visage - Better than it was in S2, it's pretty good now, and since it gives CDR and HP it's generally superior to Banshees, especially given the cost.
  • Twin Shadows - Underrated, some champions don't really want the AP, though.
  • Crucible - Again, the mana and mana regen aren't usually relevant.
  • QSS/Scimitar - Most tanks shouldn't be needing the active, and you pay a high price for the active.
  • GA - A lot weaker, and starting at a flat amount of health isn't usually what a tank wants. Especially since they aren't tanking while they are reviving.
We have maybe 4-5 viable MR options, Maw, Spirit Visage, Twin Shadows, Bulwark, Banshees, the latter of which probably is just overpriced still.
Compare it to viable armor options at the moment:
Frozen Heart, Iceborn Gauntlet, Locket, Bulwark, Omen, Sunfire Cape, Spirit of the Ancient Golem.
Atmas, Banner of Command, and Ohmwrecker also want to be armor items, but they are rarely good. Zhonyas isn't good on most tanks. Thornmail is highly situational.

So we have at least 6 good armor options, of which they generally provide more armor than the MR options provide MR. Part of this may be to deal with the fact that ADCs have more multiplicative scaling than mages, but the fact remains that armor items provide more options and armor than MR items provide MR.

EDIT: I think overall, there are more earlygame options for MR items, since there are more items that provide MR in addition to their other stats, but there are fewer lategame MR options when you actually want an item that provides significant values of MR.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Oh, and Leblanc, Brand, Trundle, Viktor, Swain, etc. could all use a pass and get their base defenses at least made "average." So many champs are UP simply because their base stats are archaically outdated.


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IS13940001471ffbdf28d0e

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Please Xyph, change Voidstaff and Lastwhisper. Do the maths, it is worth to get these items even if the enemy build 0 armor. If the enemy have 80 armor, you shred 40%(including masteries) so he only have 48 armor. I don't know the exactly % damage reduction, but you know low stacks resistences worth more than high stack resistences.
I could even put some flat pen.

Another thing is, why there is flat armor pen, but no flat magic pen masteries?


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Imogen Poots

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Armor is indeed a percentage based survivability boost - but one that is multiplicative with every other form of survivability boost. Intrinsically, you need to balance around the most abusive case, rather than the least abusive case.
Shield/regen/drain are all on the same multiplicative scaling plane as health. To put it another way, for the purpose of multiplicative scaling with resistances, they are all effectively conditionally added health with only the sum being multiplicative with resistances.

That's like saying OMG health is an uber multiplicative stat because it is multiplicative with all forms of flat and conditional resistances champion kits and gears can give you. It ain't crit-AS-AD-ArPen. Also, you basically always have to balance everything around the most abusive case anyway. Resistances isn't the only one that has to follow that rule just because you have an irrationally high opinion of it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Armor has so many synergies, especially with other forms of sustained healing / shield effects that the weakened state is a better reflection of how strong the statistic actually is.
Again, every single "multiplicative OMG" is actually equivalent to conditionally added health for the purpose of multipicative scaling. It's no more crazy than health being multiplicative with different forms of added resistances, conditional or otherwise. Besides, your team has been nerfing all these different forms of "conditionally added health" based on S2 gear numbers. Now that you have messed with that, in most cases you will need to go back and rebuff them again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually pretty sure that armor isn't a useless "noob trap" at the moment - we've merely adjusted the time period which armor starts becoming relevant too far in the opposite direction.
LOL. How is that "merely"? What other mistake is there to make when it comes to the relative power between resistance and health? There is only one mistake to make there, which is to shift the relative balance too far in a direction, and you made it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This might be true - but if you need an arbitrary damage distinction limitation to get a entire class of characters to be played - I'm pretty sure there are some flaws in it.

Why not split things into three types? Physical, Magical and Arcane? This would allow a whole new class of arcane characters to be part of every team! Basically, yes it solves the issue of needing to bring multiple types of classes into the fray - but if this is the only benefit it does - then all it encourages is fairly artificial distinctions in the end.

If characters are weak and unviable - then yes, you can solve it with a type of system that forces you to play with weak and unviable characters by making it so that the ideal composition is weak. However, I'm not sure that really solves anything about those characters to begin with.
That's just the point. Your changes has knocked an entire class of characters, namely burst casters, out of whack. There certainly are some flaws in that!