@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Lethminite

Senior Member

01-23-2013

With your warwick example.

Does warwick stack health or armour/MR now?

It seems like he would be a good indicator of if health is off from your arguments.
If dispite all his lifesteal he still doesn't want to build resistances to multiply it, and instead chooses stacking health to be tanky, that should show that multiplied lifesteal isn't relevent enough atm.

I don't know how he builds these days though, which is it?


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Merana

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorchXBanister View Post
Shouldn't she be weaker than when resistances were stronger?

I mean that logic doesn't make sense. Resistances make the health she gains back from her W worth more per point. Max health doesn't do that. Olaf stands to gain noticeably by building pure health. Irelia? Loving the damage mitigation.
Maybe he means playing as irelia, since true damage isn't as good against early warmogs


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

01-23-2013

What about champion who get abilities that scale off the other team's HP? One specific champion that seems to be doing extremely well versus health stacking is Elise. I know she's up for nerfs on the PBE now but how much do you think other champions like Malzahar, Fizz, Zed, etc. benefit?

And, kind of related, what do you think of Blade of the Ruined King right now? Which types of champions is it made to be built on (Better suited for AD carries like Tristana/Kog'Maw or more of a bruiser like Lee Sin?) and does it seem like it's effective?


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Luvatar

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
High Health / Low Resist has tons of counterplay - in fact, quite a good deal more than resistances in most cases.
Health has almost no counterplay on the AP side of things. Liandry's is not good on busts and neither is DFG due to the range. Plus MDB's passive is gone for on-hit magic damage builds.

Health stacking might have some downsdies to armor stacking on the AD sides of things, but it comes with the amazing benefit that it also protects you from AP's. I honestly do not understand how could such a powerful thing (Protecting from all sources of damage) be taken so lightly. It's like you based all your calculations comparing Health vs Armor exclusively, while completely forgetting Health also protects from Magic.


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Imogen Poots

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
High Health / Low Resist has tons of counterplay - in fact, quite a good deal more than resistances in most cases.

The most basic form of counterplay versus health is life steal. Innately, the higher health and lower resistances someone has, the more effective my life steal statistic becomes. It's why having 4000 health doesn't really help you against Warwick - but having 100 MR does. Your health pool is becoming *their* health pool.

Furthermore, as I've explained earlier, resistances bolster your own natural defenses - whereas health doesn't. Shields / Self-heals / Regeneration effects become far out of line when resistances are strong - because resistance magnifies these - these effects typically have very little counterplay of their own without further stacked effects.
Far out of line shield/sustain have been nerfed back in line in S2 with S2 health/resistance relative balance already. So what you are saying is that you need to go back and buff those shield/sustain abilities back into line now that resistance is weak?


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I'm kinda seeing where Xyph is going with this argument. In jungle fights Wriggles usually wins out against anyone stacking health. My issue with the whole Resistance/Health argument is that tanks are more ability oriented than item oriented. Take Galio and Rammus, both seem like equipment dependent champions but their roles are reversed, Rammus can't take a hit from a carry since he has base low health and low armor (if he had high stats he'd be OP) but with his kit and mobility he's able to suppress a character say a support or mage and completely shut down their damage or utility and open up damage from his team. Meanwhile Galio can tank a number of hits from a carry with his support skill since he's carrying around a thornmail level of armor and do massive aoe damage and burst. Tank's are my favorite class in this game but my issue is that BC is really slot efficient and just needs a gold nerf or something to balance it out. I think Riot should put a cap on resistance shred from items so it doesn't completely remove the gold value of itemization, high enough to do what it's intended not to high to counter 6k of armor(three late game item slots) just with 2 items because tanks literally have a cap with what we can diminish from a carry 20-40% attack speed. SO why do carries get to counter half of our gear and tanks just get items to mitigate Berzerker Greaves?


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Kyrie Friegraf

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merana View Post
Maybe he means playing as irelia, since true damage isn't as good against early warmogs
I'm pretty sure he said Irelia was BUILDING the Warmog's and doing better in teamfights.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-23-2013

with how powerful lifesteal is outside of combat it shouldn't even be an in-combat stat.

lord knows why ranged carries turning in to better drain tanks end game than Vlad, Viktor, Irelia, Warwick, etc. is considered normal.

the rest of this thread is too mushy to even get in to. Health, resistances, which ever is better tends to impact certain heroes better. Udyr goes from pretty good to **** tier and has to get massive buffs just to get back on par, while Olaf goes from pretty good to god tier and is likely going to see his flat pen reduced to 8/16/24. Health is better so I play Olaf, damage is better so I play Kha'zix, resistances are better so I play Udyr. End result is every champion is going to excel when one stat is better, but the overall impact on the game is "some champions dun gonna be tanky."

Unless you;re Nasus, then you suck no matter what.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
12 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
because tanks literally have a cap with what we can diminish from a carry 20-40% attack speed. SO why do carries get to counter half of our gear and tanks just get items to mitigate Berzerker Greaves?
It's actually multiplicatively reducing. The attack speed slows that you get lower their total attack speed by a percentage. Which means that a combination of Randuin's + Frozen heart will lower opposing carry DPS by 40% if you're being attacked.

Quote:
Health has almost no counterplay on the AP side of things. Liandry's is not good on busts and neither is DFG due to the range. Plus MDB's passive is gone for on-hit magic damage builds.
Potentially - and this is going to be pretty controversial - but burst damage isn't really designed to have counterplay either because the ideal scenario for a burst mage is death without the possibility of reaction.

It's just something we typically don't support in large quantities either way without caveats like the range of DFG or the conditional 'you must poke at them for a while' in Liandry's case. A scenario where unrestricted burst damage is allowed to do its thing isn't actually all that great - which is why many Burst mages have secondary utility fall back patterns.

Quote:
lord knows why ranged carries turning in to better drain tanks end game than Vlad, Viktor, Irelia, Warwick, etc. is considered normal.
Theoretically, this is why Thornmail still exists. Theoretically.


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Kavoul

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Member

01-23-2013

@Xypherous. I have a few questions about mages in S3 now that you mention the pass mages will be getting in the next patch. There is a lot of info below, but if you could please explain any of it to me, I would appreciate it.

After watching the patch video for S3, I was unaware that mages were getting such a large amount of changes, which to me seemed like nerfs. I say this for the following reasons:

-Ap items. Just about every ability power item was either nerfed in overall value. I'll give a few examples:
- Deathcap- overall cost reduced by 400g, but ability power reduced by 20 and bonus ap reduced from 30% to 25%. This seems to me to be quite a nerf.
- athene's- overall cost reduced by only 150g, but ap given reduced by 30g.
-lich bane- overall cost reduced by 470g. 32 magic resistance taken away. passive changed to deal less dmg AS WELL as no longer benefiting from your magic penetration, since it now deals physical dmg.

-Magic pen. changes. As we all know, magic pen. is now calculated such that % pen. is taken off an enemy's mr before flat pen. affects the enemy's mr. Imo, this results in a nerf for a lot of mages simply because a lot of mages don't have void staff in their core build. And if they do, they don't access the advantages of the way magic pen. is now calculated until void staff is purchased. THis seems to me to either punish a mage who doesnt buy void staff or punish a mage if the void staff isn't purchased early to gain the benefits from the changes.

-Wraith and wolf camp changes. I feel like this can really hurt mages, especially mages who are laning against bruisers(mid lane, for clarity). As a result of the increase in difficulty of both of jungle camps, mages spend much more mana taking them out. This may be intended, but it makes difficult when laning against say lee or riven who not have mana pools. Or even khazix. He does have a mana pool, but that fact that he is ad makes it much easier for him to farm these camps if he choose. This effect can be even more noticeable for mages who dont buy items like rod of ages or archangel laning against bruisers.

I do realize that some ap items were buffed, like rod of ages and rylai's, but overall it seems like mages were nerfed. Instead of keeping the strong items where they were, they were nerfed, and the weaker items (less used items?) were buffed instead. This also seems to encourage even more people lane ad mid (was this intentional?) when you have advantages like i mentioned above.

Was there meant to be an overall nerf to mages? From everything I have noticed, it seems like mages were thought to be much too powerful.