@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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brb afk ftw

Junior Member

01-23-2013

It used to be everyone get Heart of Gold, at least now you need to make a choice where your GP10 comes from. And supports rarely get Warmogs... ADCs and APCs sometimes get it

Why is it bad if tanky builds are more simplistic (more health than other things)?

What is so toxic about rushing health for bulk? It makes a lot of sense to me


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Pyr

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I disagree with that - but I mean, sometimes late at night, I think I've actually gutted DFG. It used to be a 50% current health nuke. Now it's merely 15% max health.

I'm not actually sure whether the new DFG in any way, shape or form resembles the power / scope that the old DFG had.

It doesn't. Or maybe it does. I'm never entirely sure because the "20% bonus magic damage" aspect is... Well... Hard to distinguish. I mean, I know it's there. I know it's helping me out. But it's just not a very visible thing.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I disagree with that - but I mean, sometimes late at night, I think I've actually gutted DFG. It used to be a 50% current health nuke. Now it's merely 15% max health.

I'm not actually sure whether the new DFG in any way, shape or form resembles the power / scope that the old DFG had.
Do you have any plans to revert it? Or at least make it as viable as before? I miss the old DFG a lot :C I think the problem was Eve insta-gibbing people more so than the item itself.


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Imogen Poots

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Like, Darius, who deals 3 types of damage, phys/magic/true also has 25% armor shred because he didn't do enough damage late game. Like what? That to me was the warning sign of 'hey, there's probably something deeper rooted that's wrong.
You want to talk evidence of deeply rooted wrong. We are now seeing pro teams skipping Bulwark in LAN tournaments despite the super high efficiency of aura sharing. That's how weak armor/resistance is right now. That alone ought to set off some mental alarms that in your anti-armor/resist zealotry you have pushed their relative balance off the deep end.


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Merana

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Health may be easier to control or plan for from a design standpoint, but it is not the same as resistances.

Two major points:
1. Resistances have built in counter play available to everyone, in the form of Armor/Magic Pen. Health has extremely poor counter play, with DFG being nerfed at the end of last season and Liandry's being a joke. Why stack resists that the enemy can negate when you can build health and be tanky for sure? Especially when there are dozens of champions that can reduce the effectiveness of resists but a tiny handful that punish health stacking?

2. Resistances and health are not even in the same league efficiency wise thanks to things like warmogs. 1000 HP within your first 3000 gold is infinitely superior to building resist items for your EH because A) You have a small HP pool for resistances to work with and B) Your opponent will have a certain amount of penetration from their base kit/runes/masteries/core items no matter what and chances are a lot of your initial resistances will be negated before you can even go above 0.

Combined this with the fact that most games are basically snowball fests off the early/mid game and you have a case where warmogs decides games. It's not that people only stack health, it's that stacking health is all you do for the mid game, other items come later. You mention the number of warmogs you saw in the last tournament, did you notice how many times the warmogs was the first item, before any other kind of damage, utlity, or survivability?

If you are ahead in lane or behind in lane, if you want to pressure or you want to play defensive, if you want to counter your opponents champions AP or AD, currently warmogs is ALWAYS the answer. And that is a problem.


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Drinniol

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Since we're talking about building mages into sustained damage, can we address CDR? CDR seems the natural way to build a guy from a comboer into a sustained spell slinger, but there's really very few AP/CDR items that seem, well, good for it. I mean, take DFG for instance: a burst item with CDR. Meanwhile, there's the fact that you can get 30% CDR from just blue buff and blue elixir, which makes you feel, well, dumb whenever you build a lot of CDR and get blue buff or elixir, because you're just so much weaker than the guy who built straight AP/pen and got all of his 34-40% CDR from non slot taking sources - runes, masteries, blue buff, blue elixir.

PS: Why does the logic of removing green elixirs, that it only exists to make the winning ADC snowball over the losing one, not apply equally well to blue elixir and AP carries?


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LiptonSwagger

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Would hecarim count as a resistance based champion (health regen on his w would make resistances stronger than more hp)? Because even late game, when he's supposed to shine, it feels like I ult into the enemy team to initiate and just MELT. I think there's too much burst with penetration in this season, because a lot of "resistance based" champions will melt with a bulwark + randuins but survive with warmogs, and I think this is because the hp lets them survive the initial burst of teamfights on a level that resistances don't so they can actually utilize their sustain. I also think that the itemization in the game heavily favors damage over surviveability, which makes sense until you realize that a tank with heavy armor and some hp will still melt to an ad assassin while at the same time having nothing against ap. why do assassins need to go toe-to-toe with tanks? at all?


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DaySpectrum

Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
From what I saw of the last tournament data, there were roughly 43 warmog's built in 19 games - which means that one out of roughly three or 4 characters were getting it per game. Which seems to sync up with what I expected, since the fighter and the tank should like it - so at the very least, I expect 4 people to have Warmog's.

I mean, there's probably a lack of diversity there - but the numbers don't seem to be too far out of line - it just seems like we got the health / resistance ratio wrong, which we're addressing next patch.
May I ask why does it seem like ad champions were buffed by a huge amount in season 3, while ap assassins seem to have been well, nerfed? With the ap item nerfs, ap assassins just don't seem that viable anymore..


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Crunchdoggie

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Seeing as we're talking about the power of health and armor, can someone explain how Botrk is a good item? Madred's bloodrazer was removed because the magic passive was useless on an auto attacker. Doesn't Botrk doing physical damage make it even easier to itemize against an ad carry with it? If it does it's job, shouldn't it be an absolute must-buy on carries?


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brb afk ftw

Junior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merana View Post
Health may be easier to control or plan for from a design standpoint, but it is not the same as resistances.

Two major points:
1. Resistances have built in counter play available to everyone, in the form of Armor/Magic Pen. Health has extremely poor counter play, with DFG being nerfed at the end of last season and Liandry's being a joke. Why stack resists that the enemy can negate when you can build health and be tanky for sure? Especially when there are dozens of champions that can reduce the effectiveness of resists but a tiny handful that punish health stacking?

2. Resistances and health are not even in the same league efficiency wise thanks to things like warmogs. 1000 HP within your first 3000 gold is infinitely superior to building resist items for your EH because A) You have a small HP pool for resistances to work with and B) Your opponent will have a certain amount of penetration from their base kit/runes/masteries/core items no matter what and chances are a lot of your initial resistances will be negated before you can even go above 0.

Combined this with the fact that most games are basically snowball fests off the early/mid game and you have a case where warmogs decides games.

If you are ahead in lane or behind in lane, if you want to pressure or you want to play defensive, if you want to counter your opponents champions AP or AD, currently warmogs is ALWAYS the answer. And that is a problem.
the answer to health stacking is more damage...