@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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DaySpectrum

Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Rammus' problems I think stem from Jungle changes more than anything else. It's pretty hard to tell with him specifically. The increased health itemization should have helped him be generally tankier.

Rammus isn't really a resistance based character. Skarner, while he's not a tank, is a far better example of a resistance based character - because almost everything he is depends on that shield. Udyr is similar.

Typically, strong repeatable shield champions or champions with shields at their core are resistance based characters, because their health pool is actually several times larger than it seems.
Do you think that Riot would add this skin if enough people support it?

Mexican Tyrant Darius must rule over Summoners rift.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

On the subject of DFG, morello mentioned that if he could take it out of the game completely, he would (this was before the S3 rework). Do you agree with him on that?


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Attica

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I feel like having health being the "go to" stat for tankiness is bad. Reason being that it covers defense vs both ad and ap while getting armor vs ap or mr vs ad doesn't help vs the other. It simplifies the process of builds and requires less thought.


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Vahlen

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Rammus' problems I think stem from Jungle changes more than anything else. It's pretty hard to tell with him specifically. The increased health itemization should have helped him be generally tankier.

Rammus isn't really a resistance based character. Skarner, while he's not a tank, is a far better example of a resistance based character - because almost everything he is depends on that shield. Udyr is similar.

Typically, strong repeatable shield champions or champions with shields at their core are resistance based characters, because their health pool is actually several times larger than it seems.
Fair enough, but he's also one of the game few *true* tanks........much of his kit (passive/W) are based around acquiring high amounts of Armor. Now Obviously the health changes would have been a good buff to him, if there had not been simultaneous nerfs to his 2 strengths.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
8 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
On the subject of DFG, morello mentioned that if he could take it out of the game completely, he would (this was before the S3 rework). Do you agree with him on that?
I disagree with that - but I mean, sometimes late at night, I think I've actually gutted DFG. It used to be a 50% current health nuke. Now it's merely 15% max health.

I'm not actually sure whether the new DFG in any way, shape or form resembles the power / scope that the old DFG had.


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thunderingice

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I read that you don't think that hp is really a prob... but I found the latest tournament quite discouraging. The trend does not seem to be the best players getting over a fad... I know that Riot has a low opinion of the communities' ability to theorycraft... but... I saw one support rush a warmogs... not that supports shouldn't get nice items, but how is it ok that all 5 roles find warmogs to be worth it? And this at the top lvl, and not just in the NA scene. If these don't change soon (not tm) plz start talking with the top teams and their theorycrafters.... cuz this is painful.


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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm not actually sure they are getting to late game faster - The build you've described is a 7000+ gold build, for example. Perhaps they are - but the fact is that Warmog's isn't actually all the cost-effective from a gold / statistic conversion value wise so the argument that "they are getting to late game faster" doesn't seem to ring true at first glance? What causes them to get to late game faster?
The first thing I want to mention is that Zerker's + Warmogs + Zephyr is actually only 6.4k gold not 7k + which makes the build a lot easier to obtain going into mid game.

Secondly, Warmogs providing high sustain characters such as Irelia and Olaf with even more sustain makes them almost immovable objects during the laning phase. Having the ability to just sit in lane and farm does really contribute to you getting to late game a lot faster than your opponent. After they get this item, it is almost impossible to shove them out of lane.

Thirdly, I want to add on that health is the most effective stat in the current meta. Sure I could buy Randuin's or Sunfire, but if my opponent is running 9 points in offense and has a Black Cleaver then I am paying for 67% of the actual Armor value - flat penetration. If they then get LW, I am paying for 32% of the actual Armor value - flat penetration. If I get Warmogs, I am paying for 100% of the health value, which makes it a much more effective option against massive armor penetration.

Finally, Ruby Crystal builds into the following on Summoner's Rift:

Quote:
Aegis of the Legion
The Black Cleaver
Catalyst the Protector
Haunting Guise
Kindlegem
Phage
Ruby Sightstone
Warmog's Armor
As a top lane Bruiser I might look to get Black Cleaver, but this would make me very squishy in lane. Furthermore, if my opponent has naturally high damage and they decide to rush health then I might be in a bad situation. I'll pick this item up later.

As a top lane bruiser I probably won't be investing in Rod of Ages (except Singed, who I'm not sure really qualifies as a Brusier). Banshee's Veil is an incredibly ineffective rush since I lose the passive from Catalyst upon building it, so if I buy this item I'll get it later in my build.

Haunting Guise is basically the same thing as RoA. Unless you scale off of AP, you aren't getting it.

Kindlegem is a great item, but it provides me no sustain. The extra CDR is nice, but I don't think I really have the mana pool in top lane to be using my spells too often. I'm most likely not going to make Shurelya's and unless I'm against AP, I probably would get Spirit Visage later.

Phage is good, but is it worth it anymore? With the advent of Frozen Guantlet, my damage might very well be on par with Triforce (depending on the character) since I will have the effect and the CDR to use my spells more often! Frozen Mallet is good, but most top laners have a way of closing the gap and sticking to their target. Unless I'm someone that really needs it, I can probably skip this.

Ruby Sightstone is good, but do I need to invest that much money into warding if I am not supporting? I know that warding is a teamwide effort, but I don't think I am going to need that many wards during my lane phase unless I am supporting. It would be more effective for me to just buy 2 wards each back. I don't really feel like delaying my core build and going into a weak midgame.

Warmogs looks good! It is incredibly slot efficient, provides massive amounts of health, and gives me some good sustain in lane! Not only that, but the extra health will make it a lot harder to gank me and probably serve as a deterrent from the jungler since they will waste a lot of time if they don't manage to pull the gank off. I can just sit up here and farm all day.

I hope you get the point that I am trying to make. Warmogs may not be the most effective source of health, but with the rise of Black Cleaver it is probably the most effective item to get. It can be core in almost any build and only scales better as the game goes on and you acquire more health.

The hardest counter to Health is probably anything that can make really good use out of Liandry's Torment, but as of right now most mages aren't a threat when Bruisers seem to dominate the game.


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USnip

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Member

01-23-2013

I hope characters that relied on abusing heals/shields with the old resist values get a pass so they can be good in s3 too, and it's not just taking health scalers like olaf down a notch... fore example WW didn't gain nearly as much from the new jungle as he lost from becoming unable to abuse his broken interaction with his Q + armor/mr. I don't know if you've tried late game ww but it's a farrrrrr cry from late game s2 ww.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
9 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
I read that you don't think that hp is really a prob... but I found the latest tournament quite discouraging. The trend does not seem to be the best players getting over a fad... I know that Riot has a low opinion of the communities' ability to theorycraft... but... I saw one support rush a warmogs... not that supports shouldn't get nice items, but how is it ok that all 5 roles find warmogs to be worth it?
From what I saw of the last tournament data, there were roughly 43 warmog's built in 19 games - which means that one out of roughly three or 4 characters were getting it per game. Which seems to sync up with what I expected, since the fighter and the tank should like it - so at the very least, I expect 4 people to have Warmog's.

I mean, there's probably a lack of diversity there - but the numbers don't seem to be too far out of line - it just seems like we got the health / resistance ratio wrong, which we're addressing next patch.

Quote:
Secondly, Warmogs providing high sustain characters such as Irelia and Olaf with even more sustain makes them almost immovable objects during the laning phase. Having the ability to just sit in lane and farm does really contribute to you getting to late game a lot faster than your opponent. After they get this item, it is almost impossible to shove them out of lane.
Irelia being able to sit in lane and farm forever isn't a new problem. In fact, it's pretty much been her problem forever.

I'm not actually sure why Irelia seems stronger, to be perfectly fair, because she used to do the same thing with resistances, for example.

Olaf, on the other hand, I can understand. The skill that gives him his primary sustain in lane, also gives him bonus AD based on health - which has doubly amped their farm/sustain potential - but that's more of a health scaling thing in my opinion - though I admit, I could be totally off.

Quote:
Thirdly, I want to add on that health is the most effective stat in the current meta. Sure I could buy Randuin's or Sunfire, but if my opponent is running 9 points in offense and has a Black Cleaver then I am paying for 67% of the actual Armor value. If they have LW, I am paying for 32% of the actual Armor value. If I get Warmogs, I am paying for 100% of the health value, which makes it a much more effective option against massive armor penetration.
I'm just going to nitpick here and say that armor penetration stacks multiplicatively. If they had 9 points in offense, and have full stacks of cleaver and last whisper, you are paying for 45% of the actual armor value - granted, that's low - but in S3, if they had 9 points in offense and a last whisper, you were paying for 54% of the actual armor value.

Yes, a significant difference - but not as big as you'd think.

Quote:
Warmogs looks good! It is incredibly slot efficient, provides massive amounts of health, and gives me some good sustain in lane! Not only that, but the extra health will make it a lot harder to gank me and probably serve as a deterrent from the jungler since they will waste a lot of time if they don't manage to pull the gank off. I can just sit up here and farm all day.

I hope you get the point that I am trying to make. Warmogs may not be the most effective source of health, but with the rise of Black Cleaver it is probably the most effective item to get. It can be core in almost any build and only scales better as the game goes on and you acquire more health.
Kind of - it doesn't really scale better as you acquire more health - you certainly get more regeneration but there is a threshold where you should be building Randuin's or Sunfire cape to massively multiply your survivability from armor.

The lane case that you've stated is a problem - and I completely agree with you on that. That's something that Scarizard has pointed out to me recently that I'll need to start digging into, that it might still be too good as a health regeneration item, even if we took off 40 HP/5 from the base.


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KittensGotClaws

Senior Member

01-23-2013

@Xypherous

Are there any plans in the near future to make AP Carries be able to...well...actually carry?