@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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TheAmpca

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Snip
I know I'm a little off topic here but what do you think about the current state of Iceborn Gauntlets. I find it to be a very effective item on most bruiser but not overly effective, however I just find it extremely frustrating to play against when I'm against a ranged ad such as ezreal who can spam his abilities. The size of the slow is really annoying because if you take a different path to avoid running into a slow circle you end up spending about the same amount of time anyways.


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Masterfiends

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01-23-2013

warmangs guy


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Kyrie Friegraf

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous;33836581You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

[B
1.[/B] % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.
Can ask a slightly related question to something pertaining to resists vs health?

There are several tanks/bruisers that scale from health, and some that scale from defense.

Malphite would be stronger in the armor case than the health case, right? Since he can stick to people and his AD would go farther in a 1v1. The case is similar for someone like Maokai, who heals based on his maximum health with his passive, and since he has high armor, his health is worth more. The difference between building health and armor, however, is that someone can negate all of their hard work with two items and some innate armor reduction, whereas they can't actually negate health - they have to burn through it. They have a choice. But since armor is subpar compared to health, they just build the health since they technically scale both ways; Malphite's passive is based off of his max health, so he still benefits, and Maokai's ultimate makes his health worth more like the armor would.

Even when health is the best stat, Sejuani and Nautilus aren't even remotely popular. Neither is Mundo. They don't usually get to choose between health and armor. They gain direct bonuses from health. Even though health is great on everyone, they still aren't picked because they lose a lot of health early on. This makes it seem to me armor is stronger than health over a long time where you can regen health (like natural HPRegen) even if your regen is based off of your health.

How come champions who are debate-ably stronger building resistances are still more popular than health based champions? Or is that just due to the specific champions I used for my example?


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Last Elixir

Senior Member

01-23-2013

omg, what do you have in mind for Shyvana??


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
5 of 27 Riot Posts

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Isn't the intrinsic worth of this lifesteal against health also diminished against armor when coupled with armor penetration though? I've always understood that armor pen affects effective life steal
You can magnify the effect of lifesteal with armor penetration, yes - but that's because you are countering their armor which is what is actually diminishing your lifesteal.

Quote:
I mean it seems pretty much any champion that's relevant has a pen/shred function or scales off health. Whether it be Xin, J4, Darius, Olaf, etc..

Yes health feels better to buy, but that's primarily due to resistances feeling less so.
I totally agree with you - it became more and more obvious to me that armor was too cheap when we started throwing armor shred on basically everyone that wasn't a carry because none of them could scale to late game when people built optimally.

Like, Darius, who deals 3 types of damage, phys/magic/true also has 25% armor shred because he didn't do enough damage late game. Like what? That to me was the warning sign of 'hey, there's probably something deeper rooted that's wrong.'

Quote:
Malphite would be stronger in the armor case than the health case, right? Since he can stick to people and his AD would go farther in a 1v1. The case is similar for someone like Maokai, who heals based on his maximum health with his passive, and since he has high armor, his health is worth more. The difference between building health and armor, however, is that someone can negate all of their hard work with two items and some innate armor reduction, whereas they can't actually negate health - they have to burn through it. They have a choice. But since armor is subpar compared to health, they just build the health since they technically scale both ways; Malphite's passive is based off of his max health, so he still benefits, and Maokai's ultimate makes his health worth more like the armor would.

Even when health is the best stat, Sejuani and Nautilus aren't even remotely popular. Neither is Mundo. They don't usually get to choose between health and armor. They gain direct bonuses from health. Even though health is great on everyone, they still aren't picked because they lose a lot of health early on. This makes it seem to me armor is stronger than health over a long time where you can regen health (like natural HPRegen) even if your regen is based off of your health.

How come champions who are debate-ably stronger building resistances are still more popular than health based champions? Or is that just due to the specific champions I used for my example?
Sejuani, I'm not sure - but Nautilus is pretty easy to answer. Nautilus gets more health when he builds health on his shield. He doesn't get damage from his health ratio. In fact, building resistances is the best way to amplify his shield.

Nautilus has a health ratio on his shield to ensure that no matter what defensive statistic you build - it would amplify his shield. Health scaling wasn't intended to be his core thing - I just wanted to make sure that Nautilus felt like he could build any defensive item and be decent from it because he has some of the highest defensive requirements due to low starting stats.

I'm pretty sure that the answer to most of your question is similar to the Nautilus case. While Nautilus does scale off health on his shield (10% of his health, for example) that's nowhere close to how much armor would scale him equally. The benefits from gaining health or armor tends to be skewed towards armor, because a health ratio that would actually compete with armor would look pretty ridiculous. (For example, in order for health to compete with armor for Nautilus' case, it'd have to be like 25% to 35% of his health or something.)


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IS13940001471ffbdf28d0e

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Xyph, you also didn't tune the character that had penetration in their kit in season 2. Like Kayle in example, she was balance in season 2, but now with the penetration changes she is so strong. Olaf is a good example too. Renekton was a strong pick in katowice too.


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darkestluna

Senior Member

01-23-2013

While you're here Xypherous did any of you predict the prevalence of Warmogs + Spirit Visage? Currently those two items work so well together that it's almost hilarious not to combo them. Especially when you consider speccing far into the Utility tree for things like Strength of Spirit + Vampirism/Life Steal.


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Hey xyph, while you're talking about health and health based champs, can we talk about morde? Right now he has a major problem and that's how forced he is to build Revolver. I enjoy morde, but Would it be possible to tweak his E so that it gives 1/3 of the health cost back per enemy hit? this would allow morde to actually use his abilities and have variety in his build without being forced to build a revolver. Revolver would still be fantastic, but overall, he wouldn't NEED it. Morde's Damage and Shield are fine, but early game before revolver is a nightmare that makes him a poor pick ever since his shield nerf back in season 1.

Why the downvotes?

Morde has a very VERY low pick rate. I'm not saying he's too weak, I'm just saying a way to refund his high health costs without needing revolver would be nice. I mean, Vlad has his Q and E to increase his Q's effectiveness.


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Dimwitt

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01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I totally agree with you - it became more and more obvious to me that armor was too cheap when we started throwing armor shred on basically everyone because none of them could scale to late game.
Then couldn't the likely culprit be the residual effects of S2 balance work transitioning into S3 ?

Just throwing out some food for thought, that all the items may indeed be balanced but certain champion kits make them stronger than intended (namely those with high arm pen/shred as well as those who scale off health to a lesser degree)


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Vahlen

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
You can magnify the effect of lifesteal with armor penetration, yes - but that's because you are countering their armor which is what is actually diminishing your lifesteal.

I totally agree with you - it became more and more obvious to me that armor was too cheap when we started throwing armor shred on basically everyone that wasn't a carry because none of them could scale to late game when people built optimally.

Like, Darius, who deals 3 types of damage, phys/magic/true also has 25% armor shred because he didn't do enough damage late game. Like what? That to me was the warning sign of 'hey, there's probably something deeper rooted that's wrong.'

So what are your plans for champions like Rammus? His passive is completely based around buying armor, which you nerfed 2-fold through cost and effectiveness........I remember you quoting something like "burning 1 champion to save a hundred" in a Heimer thread, it just seem like this is your go-to philosophy way too much and in the ends turns out to be maybe a dozen or so champions getting burned.