@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
4 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
I created a thread that went on for over 10 pages(ish?) stating that you WOULD need to nerf vlad because his pool was too powerful. You came in defense of Shurelia, who stated vlad was "fine" back when Vlad was new, which he wasn't.
Oh fair enough. If it was 2 years ago - yeah, I was probably wrong. I was wrong about like eeeverything 2 years ago.

I may have slightly improved since then - but still not by much. XD

Quote:
Olaf scales well with health for obvious synergies health has with his W and R, but I mention Irelia because she already has a lot of damage in her kit. The truth is, she doesn't really need to build damage to become an effective Bruiser. The most common thing to do with her in Korea is to rush Warmogs then pick up Zerker's followed by Zephyr. Do you really think that late game heroes getting to late game faster isn't a problem?
I'm not actually sure they are getting to late game faster - The build you've described is a 7000+ gold build, for example. Perhaps they are - but the fact is that Warmog's isn't actually all the cost-effective from a gold / statistic conversion value wise so the argument that "they are getting to late game faster" doesn't seem to ring true at first glance? What causes them to get to late game faster?


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.

For example:

1. Health doesn't reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal type effects - or the secondary effects of an opponent's abilities.

2. Raw health isn't multiplicative with other healing or regeneration effects - allowing it to be effective without drastically multiplying in value with other effects (self heals, shields and the like.)

3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.

4. Because of high health per level gains, the relative effectiveness of health is far more temporary than resistances - This is just a natural fallout of our stat per level gains, not an intrinsic advantage of health.

For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.

Thus, the AD carry or any damage dealer actually has multiple paths to deal with a high health target than they did - because the other defensive aspects of the bruisers *aren't* being multiplied or their own secondary defensive statistic (lifesteal) isn't being diminished as well.

The flip side of this is that Flat Armor Penetration, the primary statistic of assassins, can be weaker and still be as effective versus Bruisers because of their ability to negate a far larger portion of armor.

Naturally, this has the flipside of making certain resistance focused tanks weaker - but that's something I feel like we should solve on resistance based tanks. So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.

Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!

However, let's take a look at how things change when the game continues - as the game continues, the relative contribution of that armor to my health levels doesn't decay mostly because our game awards much more health per level than armor per level. In fact, by the time I'm level 8 or so, I'll probably have 1200 base health - and thus that 800 health is only increasing my effective at a lower ratio.

However, that 150 armor advantage is "still there".

Note this isn't an intrinsic advantage of health versus armor - just a side effect of how we award stats per level - but it does mean that the relative advantage of health in this case is temporary - rather than one that persists through the game.
Isn't the intrinsic worth of this lifesteal against health also diminished against armor when coupled with armor penetration though? I've always understood that armor pen affects effective life steal


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Vahlen

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.

For example:

1. Health doesn't reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal type effects - or the secondary effects of an opponent's abilities.

2. Raw health isn't multiplicative with other healing or regeneration effects - allowing it to be effective without drastically multiplying in value with other effects (self heals, shields and the like.)

3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.

4. Because of high health per level gains, the relative effectiveness of health is far more temporary than resistances - This is just a natural fallout of our stat per level gains, not an intrinsic advantage of health.

For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.

Thus, the AD carry or any damage dealer actually has multiple paths to deal with a high health target than they did - because the other defensive aspects of the bruisers *aren't* being multiplied or their own secondary defensive statistic (lifesteal) isn't being diminished as well.

The flip side of this is that Flat Armor Penetration, the primary statistic of assassins, can be weaker and still be as effective versus Bruisers because of their ability to negate a far larger portion of armor.

Naturally, this has the flipside of making certain resistance focused tanks weaker - but that's something I feel like we should solve on resistance based tanks. So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.

Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!

However, let's take a look at how things change when the game continues - as the game continues, the relative contribution of that armor to my health levels doesn't decay mostly because our game awards much more health per level than armor per level. In fact, by the time I'm level 8 or so, I'll probably have 1200 base health - and thus that 800 health is only increasing my effective at a lower ratio.

However, that 150 armor advantage is "still there".

Note this isn't an intrinsic advantage of health versus armor - just a side effect of how we award stats per level - but it does mean that the relative advantage of health in this case is temporary - rather than one that persists through the game.
Resistance based tank that feels weak huh? *Cough Rammus *Cough *Cough


He was nerfed very heavily before all these itemization changes went through.........and then took another beating with S3 jungle. It seems like he has just fallin out of view since he's in a really odd/barely viable/non-competitive pick place right now.


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Dimwitt

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Isn't the bigger culprit the massive pen/shred going around ?
I mean it seems pretty much any champion that's relevant has a pen/shred function or scales off health. Whether it be Xin, J4, Darius, Olaf, etc..

Yes health feels better to buy, but that's primarily due to resistances feeling less so.


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Jesus the Friend

Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Oh fair enough. If it was 2 years ago - yeah, I was probably wrong. I was wrong about like eeeverything 2 years ago.

I may have slightly improved since then - but still not by much. XD
I still don't know EXACTLY what you do, but I'm sure you're good at it.

Sticking to your guns will make you unpopular with a lot of people, but I 100% support your work. GJ man.


Also, resistance based tank that is suffering, I have to echo shyvana...


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Camen Sieder

Senior Member

01-23-2013

nothing is wrong with warmogs... go watch the champion spotlight and you can see all the warmog stacking there too lol...

RIOT likes warmogs!


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dogbiter

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Oh fair enough. If it was 2 years ago - yeah, I was probably wrong. I was wrong about like eeeverything 2 years ago.

I may have slightly improved since then - but still not by much. XD
hey xyph, thoughts on making yi an hybrid character?? im saying this mostly because of the problems with AP yi and to make someone use the rageblade besides jax?? ?who doesnt make use it frecuently in first place


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
2. We'll have to do a pass on character that used to scale primarily off health because their tuning is probably off - Probably not a huge surprise that Shen or Olaf are pretty decent now.
How about Cho? Any thoughts? I just posted a thread that suggested his ult might be OP now because his health gain is more efficient.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Volibear is a resistance tank. I mean, he is an ARMORed bear, right?


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IS13940001471ffbdf28d0e

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Xyph, you also didn't tune the character that had penetration in their kit in season 2. Like Kayle in example, she was balance in season 2, but now with the penetration changes she is so strong.