@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Frost Walrus

Senior Member

01-20-2013

I'm curious as to whether you think the fact that stacking health to survive through both physical and magical damage is more effective against single damage comps than stacking the appropriate resist is bad design. Players instinctively think they should build the stat that counters the damage they're taking, but instead because of the changes to penetration and items they would be better off just building more items out of Giant's Belt.

Do you think that reverting the penetration changes or removing or completely reworking the items that make stacking defensive stats impossible is a more effective way of dealing with this?


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Aetis

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

Health items got nerfed in s3 as well.


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TT Dreadnaught

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Yeah but I think there is some rule where rioters can't admit they ****ed up.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
1 of 27 Riot Posts

I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.

For example:

1. Health doesn't reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal type effects - or the secondary effects of an opponent's abilities.

2. Raw health isn't multiplicative with other healing or regeneration effects - allowing it to be effective without drastically multiplying in value with other effects (self heals, shields and the like.)

3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.

4. Because of high health per level gains, the relative effectiveness of health is far more temporary than resistances - This is just a natural fallout of our stat per level gains, not an intrinsic advantage of health.

For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 2000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is more effective in the first case than the second as % armor penetration values go up - values start to skew drastically as % armor penetration goes beyond ~20% or so, relatively neutral for low values of % armor penetration.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.

Thus, the AD carry or any damage dealer actually has multiple paths to deal with a high health target than they did - because the other defensive aspects of the bruisers *aren't* being multiplied or their own secondary defensive statistic (lifesteal) isn't being diminished as well.

The flip side of this is that Flat Armor Penetration, the primary statistic of assassins, can be weaker and still be as effective versus Bruisers because of their ability to negate a far larger portion of armor.

Naturally, this has the flipside of making certain resistance focused tanks weaker - but that's something I feel like we should solve on resistance based tanks. So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.

Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!

However, let's take a look at how things change when the game continues - as the game continues, the relative contribution of that armor to my health levels doesn't decay mostly because our game awards much more health per level than armor per level. In fact, by the time I'm level 8 or so, I'll probably have 1200 base health - and thus that 800 health is only increasing my effective at a lower ratio.

However, that 150 armor advantage is "still there".

Note this isn't an intrinsic advantage of health versus armor - just a side effect of how we award stats per level - but it does mean that the relative advantage of health in this case is temporary - rather than one that persists through the game.


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Jesus the Friend

Member

01-23-2013

^
Supports League of Warmog.
gg

Hey Xyph, I was the guy who stated that Vlad's pool needed to be nerfed in PB forum, you said I was wrong...
Then later, you were forced to nerf his pool, over and over.
BWAHAHAHAHA!


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Jidery

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.

For example:

1. Health doesn't reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal type effects - or the secondary effects of an opponent's abilities.

2. Raw health isn't multiplicative with other healing or regeneration effects - allowing it to effective without drastically multiplying in value.

3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.

4. Because of high health per level gains, the relative effectiveness of health is far more temporary than resistances - This is just a natural fallout of our stat per level gains, not an intrinsic advantage of health.

For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.

Thus, the AD carry or any damage dealer actually has multiple paths to deal with a high health target than they did - because the other defensive aspects of the bruisers *aren't* being multiplied or their own secondary defensive statistic (lifesteal) isn't being diminished as well.

The flip side of this is that Flat Armor Penetration, the primary statistic of assassins, can be weaker and still be as effective versus Bruisers because of their ability to negate a far larger portion of armor.

Naturally, this has the flipside of making certain resistance focused tanks weaker - but that's something I feel like we should solve on resistance based tanks. So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.

Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!

However, let's take a look at how things change when the game continues - as the game continues, the relative contribution of that armor to my health levels doesn't decay mostly because our game awards much more health per level than armor per level. In fact, by the time I'm level 8 or so, I'll probably have 1200 base health - and thus that 800 health is only increasing my effective at a lower ratio.

However, that 150 armor advantage is "still there".

Note this isn't an intrinsic advantage of health versus armor - just a side effect of how we award stats per level - but it does mean that the relative advantage of health in this case is temporary - rather than one that persists through the game.
Welcome to the League of Bruisers


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Atreiyu

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Xyph, can you tell us what you plan to do about the warmogs spam currently? I don't mind if you don't nerf warmogs, but please tell us you have some plan in action.


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CupcakeRaptorr

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Member

01-23-2013

can irelia get a buff to her true damage at later ranks then. Health ruins her this season.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
2 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Xyph, can you tell us what you plan to do about the warmogs spam currently? I don't mind if you don't nerf warmogs, but please tell us you have some plan in action.
Not actually certain it's as big of a problem as the current environment thinks it is. Warmog's isn't really efficient in terms of gaining raw health per gold if you do the math on it. Buying any combination of ruby crystal items, for example, will net you more health than gold than buying Warmog's.

At the moment, it looks like it's more an environmental thing than an actual cost to gold effectiveness ratio.

Although, there's a couple of things tuned around old armor values that we'll probably need to look at in the future:

1. The tower damage / armor penetration formulae were based off old health / armor values. We'll probably have to revisit that soonish so that towers have more damage and less armor penetration.

2. We'll have to do a pass on character that used to scale primarily off health because their tuning is probably off - Probably not a huge surprise that Shen or Olaf are pretty decent now.

Quote:
Hey Xyph, I was the guy who stated that Vlad's pool needed to be nerfed in PB forum, you said I was wrong...
Then later, you were forced to nerf his pool, over and over.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
I typically don't comment on Vladimir at all, are you confusing me with someone else? I don't actually have a lot of ton of balance insight into Vlad - despite him being my forum avatar.


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Kelly Price

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Member

01-23-2013

Health being better is good and all, but it would be more fun if armour were more... relevant. Making it cheaper would probably work, if nothing else.


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