Looking for Sejuani Feedback

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Thessalonike

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trample Stampede View Post
Are you redoing Sej partly because of people's idea that she needs to be a full tank when in fact she functions better as an AP bruiser of sorts?

When I first started playing sej, nothing about her kit said for me to be the tankiest person in the game. Instead, it was stack magic pen and health, characteristics of AP bruisers (see elise). It's like kat's who used to rush deathcap; not a terrible option, but you get so much more from magic pen. Same applies for sej players who immediately go super defensive and stick with that all game, not the worst option but could be better.

It's no wonder people say she doesn't do damage, because they have no magic pen, and its no wonder they say she's relatively squishy, because nothing in her kit makes her tankier, except for her w which simply encourages health stacking. It just seems like to me people haven't quite discovered her kit.
Yea people still see "Tank" and go straight for damage mitigation, damage absorb and tend to leave out the disruption, peel, threat parts.


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Based Ocelot

Member

01-23-2013

I played sejuani when she first came out and after everytime that I noticed she even got so much as a stat change and although I really haven't played much of her overall, I just tended to regret choosing her because while she is a cc master at six and her ganks are *quite* nice I think that I just played other junglers because she just couldn't do the kinds of things that other tank initiator junglers can do, because while sejuani can chain her cc she doesn't have the sticking power of say naut or lee to make use of her really nice aoe damage, or the higher burst aoe damage to make her relatively short cc chaining (comparatively) give her time to use her damage to the fullest, take mumu for example his ult (I do love sejuani's ult much more as an aoe ult) on top of his aoe damage can happen relatively quickly compared to sejuani's which takes much longer than mumu.

She does have a much better follow up to her ultimate in terms of cc (that 70% slow is quite nice) than mumu, but the damage she would have dealt is significantly less especially against healthy opponents or opponents with a nice amount of magic resist, but as I think the real problem is she has to sacrifice tankiness for damage and there isn't a nice balance on what you can build because of how she scales in terms of health and ap and though liandry's is in my opinion the best solution to this problem, one item to rule them all isn't where the meta seems to be leaning like it did in season two.

As far as her kit goes though it really shouldn't take much more than a tweak to her scaling, base stats, and passive/e interaction which may seem under whelming but would do such a world of good for her that it would be criminal not to try it. I'll be happy to see where you guys go with this because sejuani could be a nice alternative to other champions that are banned more in ranked like mumu, and be just as affective while offering a different set of skills to the table that allow for new compositions.

Hoping for the best with her rework! Thanks for meddling with this one Meddler.


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Brian Krebs

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naezma View Post
Buff her passive first of all. She's from the Freljord, not a 30 degrees house.
Raise her base damage, her spells, and her spell ratios so she can build AP-Tank instead of 5x warmog's to rely on her W for damage.

You should make her Permafrost splash, which will slow enemy champions nearby an enemy minion/monster it is casted on by half and dealing half.

Basically, Sejuani lacks laning potential and I think she's the worst lane champion in game. You have to put her in the jungle until she gets her ultimate and Shurelya's, then she can finally play.


Good job Riot, I'm glad you've finally come to working on Sejuani.

So.. Karma, my favorite support, is next.. Right? (Buff le Mantra...)

Sejuani is decent top laner because she meets the 3 basic requirements of a laner:
Scales well with gold
CC for ganks
waveclear

playing her as an AP bruiser top works fine. same goes for mid, although is less effective in mid due to the shorter lane


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

01-23-2013
16 of 38 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Yes, but asking for buffs without knowing if the champion needs it or not isnt healthy imo. Feedback, like what i and many others have supplied during various sejuani threads, is constructive discusion and criticisms. Not striaight out crying for buffs on a champion we barely know.
Theres a distinction, new players to champ calling for buffs is completely different to explaining where they are struggling.
When somebody states why they are struggling, others can assist them, and then problem solved, no need to change the champ unless something is fundamently wrong so everybody from experienced to new are struggling.
When somebody calls for buffs, theirs nothing you can do to help them, its just an extra cry onto the buff train, without anyway to revert it.
Asking for changes, even if from an inexperienced perspective can still be quite valuable to us. There's a pretty high chance the suggested changes may not be appropriate, but they do reveal a lot about a player's experience. Requests for damage buffs when we're happy with a champion's damage output are a good indication that we may not be communicating the damage being deal (through particles, tooltips, sound etc) as well as we might for example.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Asking for changes, even if from an inexperienced perspective can still be quite valuable to us. There's a pretty high chance the suggested changes may not be appropriate, but they do reveal a lot about a player's experience. Requests for damage buffs when we're happy with a champion's damage output are a good indication that we may not be communicating the damage being deal (through particles, tooltips, sound etc) as well as we might for example.
On that note maybe say her Ulti explodes once it reaches max range and doesn't actually hit an enemy champion. Stuns for 1 second since it hit no champ and damages as normal.

Oh, what about range elimination for Permafrost? Just the 3 second limit?


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

01-23-2013
17 of 38 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Building the passive of the marks into permafrost works and losing the 10% slow on autos. Currently, apprehensive, it al depends on what this new passive is. I hope its still something thematically relevant, toward her Slowing everybody to the point where they cant do much. Any ideas on what this new passive will be?
So that we, her playerbase, can make suggestions, etc. I dont want changes to be sprung on her without us at least being able to offer suggestions/changes first. Please (insert pouting puppy here)
Potentially something that taps into her mounted nature a bit, not certain on that though, very much an ongoing process the moment. One thing I'd like to avoid however is having to strip significant power away from her other abilities to add a really strong passive, given her current passive doesn't have that much power tied into it under most circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
Thats actually awesome, however...
Seeing as the 10% slow is being removed, could we, instead of fixing the range inidcator so that it becomes smaller, and shows the actualy range. Maybe buff the range to match the indicator? (or further) That could offset the (some of the) loss of power from the removal of her passive
Charge range (and other aspects e.g. CD) are things I'll be working closely with live design on - making something feel good and useful's easy, keeping it balanced is really important too though, particularly depending on how utility potentially gets added or shifts across the rest of her kit.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Potentially something that taps into her mounted nature a bit, not certain on that though, very much an ongoing process the moment. One thing I'd like to avoid however is having to strip significant power away from her other abilities to add a really strong passive, given her current passive doesn't have that much power tied into it under most circumstances.



Charge range (and other aspects e.g. CD) are things I'll be working closely with live design on - making something feel good and useful's easy, keeping it balanced is really important too though, particularly depending on how utility potentially gets added or shifts across the rest of her kit.
So, is this basically a shift towards Sejuani being a permanent jungler? Since the loss of the slow on her passive will effect her in every other lane?

It's somewhat problematic (imo) since I don't find her to be a powerful jungler.

Where is the "new" Sejuani supposed to lane? She doesn't have much sustain or early game strength to be top or mid. She's not particularly good support (in comparison to other aggressive supports - plus she'll be a weaker support without the slow from her passive). So it seems like this is a shift towards the jungle, that i don't feel she's that strong in. Particularly if she's basically a jungler and nothing else.

So, is Sejuani getting jungle buffs?


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MTaur

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
I've also got some concerns about this. At the moment Sejuani's in quite a strong spot late game because health stacking's generally the best defensive option and fights are lasting a bit longer, giving her more time to take advantage of her strong, sustained AOE damage. Should that change however, and I'm expecting we will see a shift towards mitigation being a solid, appropriate option again at some point, her effectiveness will take a bit of a hit. To some degree that's fine, champions should have strengths/weakness that relate to the state of the game at any point in time, there's certainly some risk though with specific niches that champions may only feel decent/effective when a bunch of other factors align which can be a problem.
I just want to remind everyone of where Sej was in S2... I played a bunch of Sejuani games, tried fitting in Warmog's, and exploded every teamfight. Eventually I threw my hands up in the air and concluded that health was a noob trap. After that I just stacked resists and never got AP, either, except from Abyssal if I was feeling bold. Then she was sort of a threat to carries (and a serious threat to glass cannons too), but there was literally nothing she could do against bruisers other than CC a little. (Only Liandry's seems to currently do much in the last case, though)

Season 3 has totally thrown the balance the other way, and I think there's a chance she could become FotM if her win rate keeps climbing. I don't know if Sejuani should be mildly nerfed, or if the gold value of resists should just be tipped slightly back the other way again. Either would do the same thing here.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

01-23-2013
18 of 38 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
Thanks for that bit.

I was wondering about your option 5) More risk, more reward. Sejuani to me is a different breed of tank. I mentioned in another post about an Ice Tank in the game City of Heroes and how they were pretty much the risk vs reward tank of that game.

With 2 taunting auras and one that damaged it was hard for an Ice Tank to lose agro and easy to steal it but without an Ice tanks built in Zhoynas they would surely die to many foes, but staying in Zhoynas to long also lost aggro so it became a fun risk vs reward senerio, it was if I do it right there is no way my team dies, if I do it wrong we all die.
Progress isn't far enough along yet to talk about more risk/reward tradeoffs - testing some stuff but whether it'll work out or not's still open to debate. Please do bear in mind this very much comes into the "It would be cool if, so we should experiment and see" category, rather than the "We will do this" category, hence my vagueness.

Regarding that style of ice tank I agree there's an interesting playstyle there, though I feel that's a somewhat different, though related, identity to the one Sejuani already has established.


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Potentially something that taps into her mounted nature a bit, not certain on that though, very much an ongoing process the moment. One thing I'd like to avoid however is having to strip significant power away from her other abilities to add a really strong passive, given her current passive doesn't have that much power tied into it under most circumstances.



Charge range (and other aspects e.g. CD) are things I'll be working closely with live design on - making something feel good and useful's easy, keeping it balanced is really important too though, particularly depending on how utility potentially gets added or shifts across the rest of her kit.
I feel so much better you haven't eluded to a "steroid" so far!