Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unchosen One View Post
Good job Itemsguy, make a SCAD alum proud.

Hows monty these days? Still as zombie-resistant as ever?
Yeah, still a coffin factory, haha. I swear to god, stepping out of there each day is like stepping out of cryosleep. What year is it? Is it really early? Or really late? Does anyone have a razor?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Unchosen One

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Yeah, still a coffin factory, haha. I swear to god, stepping out of there each day is like stepping out of cryosleep. What year is it? Is it really early? Or really late? Does anyone have a razor?
Haha, yeah. Anyway i appreciate the time spent on bringing up some important concerns in a way that will (apparently) actually get a response from Riot. I think a lot of what you said holds weight and i hope they take a good look at your resume after this discussion. It should probably also be brought up that there wouldn't be a MOBA genre if it weren't for community input, so this type of discourse is very important in order to keep things moving forward.

P.S.

Riot, hire him. The game design program at SCAD ain't no joke (that's what I was until I switched over to graphic design so I can speak with some authority).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xian217

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Do the Redesigns have too much of them - or current League too few ? All of the 'setups' you see in the Redesign fit their theme and could work, note the ones you have mentioned are like, 9 - 10 out of all champions, out of all the Redesigns ?
I believe they have a good amount. It is very difficult to assume where an enemy will go unless you have constant wards. Galio seems to be built as a warding champion and that's it. Fiddles seems to be built purely for ganks, yet he no longer has really any damaging moves? He seems to just be built to be a noob trap of stand around all game just hoping someone eventually could get ganked. Didn't you want to stop repetition not breed more of it? He also hardly seems to have any skill in the jungle.

I also saw that you quoted a certain man's post. I assume I was meant to read this and take that as part of your reply. Okay. If that's the case then I'll have to actually bust this out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
I think that divides into multiple parts: the first question is, mechanically are these characters at least as good as the characters they are updating from. And the answer to that is: you are trying to compare apples and oranges. It says very specifically on his (or her) blog that:

"None of the changes in these (theoretical) redesigns are intended for LoL as it currently stands, and are purely examples of what champions could've been if their kits had stayed true to their theming 100%, creating playstyles that better reflect the nature of the champions they belong to. If anything, they would be more fit for a sequel game--a LoL 2 of sorts--allowing fans of the old champions to stick with kits they're familiar with, while giving Riot the opportunity to start anew and create stronger designs with the experience they've accumulated over the years."
I don't like him saying that. Claiming that we can't compare the ideas for redesigns to League as it is right now is just a very limiting thing to say. It leaves people with little to actually look at as far as whether these things will be balanced, repetitious, or even fun. Will it even be a MOBA at the end or would that be out? That's irrelevant though, as we're looking at what they would be like if they interacted with eachother. There is little CC, a lot of channeling and setting up, and overly complicated mechanics to do similar stuff to what happens now. It just looks like a mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Exactly. And I tried to use Ezreal as a better example of a champion that fits his lore and reflects that in appearance while staying true to his theme - while if this would be the case he wouldn't have got his Redesign, perhaps you wouldn't have needed to read his lore if you played against Redesign Ezreal. So yeah, Ezreal isn't 100% readable, hence he has a Redesign.
But his appearance says nothing about his profession being an explorer, or mandating that he should have to run around constantly to build up stacks. It's more that his appearance says little about him and he is built 100% around his lore. Having bland abilities was perfect for him because he had no defining character features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I ask you to come out with more examples of how we contradict ourselves, it seems you are misinterpretting us, especially since you mentioned the 'lore' argument, as we've been trying to say from the start you shouldn't need lore to help a character, it's fine to lay an emphasis though.
This in itself implies that Ezreal doesn't need lore to even be slightly thematic. He is a bland character that from his splash art to his character model shows nothing of his blaster gauntlet or his hobbies. You contradicted yourself flat out by refurbishing Ezreal to be more thematic because of the lore, while recasting Kha'Zix for being just as dependent on his lore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Kha'Zix ? That would be the case of the lore justifying his flaws, so correct - Kha'Zix would need completely new lore as right now it pretty much forces to read his lore before you get why he has his evolution mechanic, whereas on Redesign Viktor this concept feels natural.
This is a matter of opinion, clearly. I saw Iron Man when I first saw Viktor. I didn't see an evolving suit for every need. I saw a man with too much time or money creating a suit to blow stuff up. I saw Kha'Zix as a giant bug that hit and assassinated people. True, neither of them screamed evolution, but that's why there are lores. You don't have to read the lores to understand why Kha can evolve, considering the lore doesn't go in depth about it. Just says that he is a voidling that can evolve by eating his prey, and searches for the ultimate prey. Besides, should we really be advocating for people to not read the lore?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RelaxingBrownies

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Just read through most of the redsigns


No off, but almost all of those are really bad :/ keep up the effort though. I like a lot of the ideas however.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megling View Post
Just read through most of the redsigns


No off, but almost all of those are really bad :/ keep up the effort though. I like a lot of the ideas however.
Either elaborate on your statement or distinguish between your particular taste an quality in regards to meeting concrete, universal standards of game design.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian217 View Post
I believe they have a good amount. It is very difficult to assume where an enemy will go unless you have constant wards. Galio seems to be built as a warding champion and that's it. Fiddles seems to be built purely for ganks, yet he no longer has really any damaging moves? He seems to just be built to be a noob trap of stand around all game just hoping someone eventually could get ganked. Didn't you want to stop repetition not breed more of it? He also hardly seems to have any skill in the jungle.
This argument about Fiddelsticks has been mentioned indeed and I'd approve of this Redesign being tricky - please note that ItemsGuy's documents about every Redesign are way more detailed, wether he has them typed out or all in his head. This would clearly be a 'could possibly work' Redesign.

Quote:
I also saw that you quoted a certain man's post. I assume I was meant to read this and take that as part of your reply. Okay. If that's the case then I'll have to actually bust this out.
Cool - thanks.


Quote:
I don't like him saying that. Claiming that we can't compare the ideas for redesigns to League as it is right now is just a very limiting thing to say. It leaves people with little to actually look at as far as whether these things will be balanced, repetitious, or even fun. Will it even be a MOBA at the end or would that be out? That's irrelevant though, as we're looking at what they would be like if they interacted with eachother. There is little CC, a lot of channeling and setting up, and overly complicated mechanics to do similar stuff to what happens now. It just looks like a mess.
Defined strengths and weaknesses - Brand Redesign would completely sync well with people that can lock the enemies up for him. And there is plently of CC for the champions where you expect them to have CC. So yeah - 'there is little CC' would only count for characters that needlessly have CC attached onto him 'just for the sake of adding it'.

Overcomplicated mechanics ? No. This is your opinion though. If migrating your plants would be an overcomplicated mechanic (wich in my opinion is extremely readable and characteristic) that's only an activate click ability, I honestly don't know what we are overcomplicating here.

Quote:
But his appearance says nothing about his profession being an explorer, or mandating that he should have to run around constantly to build up stacks. It's more that his appearance says little about him and he is built 100% around his lore. Having bland abilities was perfect for him because he had no defining character features.
His gauntlet would be a readable aspect of his appearance you see this gauntlet on the splash art as you see it in-game, he fires stuff from it, that's fine.

But I guess you do have a point yep - Ezreal could use some visual appearance tweaks, ironically he has this skin called 'Explorer Ezreal'.

Quote:
This in itself implies that Ezreal doesn't need lore to even be slightly thematic. He is a bland character that from his splash art to his character model shows nothing of his blaster gauntlet or his hobbies. You contradicted yourself flat out by refurbishing Ezreal to be more thematic because of the lore, while recasting Kha'Zix for being just as dependent on his lore.
As I have agreed on this matter that Ezreal could and should be more of an Explorer in his visual - let me take something as Vi as an better example, looking at her splash art you get she's all going to screw you over, punching people all the time - her lore lays an emphasis on that, lays an emphasis on why she does that, going into it in greater detail.

Lore should and can make a champion be more awesome, it shouldn't make them more readable (as that would make them dependant on lore)


Quote:
This is a matter of opinion, clearly. I saw Iron Man when I first saw Viktor. I didn't see an evolving suit for every need. I saw a man with too much time or money creating a suit to blow stuff up. I saw Kha'Zix as a giant bug that hit and assassinated people. True, neither of them screamed evolution, but that's why there are lores. You don't have to read the lores to understand why Kha can evolve, considering the lore doesn't go in depth about it. Just says that he is a voidling that can evolve by eating his prey, and searches for the ultimate prey. Besides, should we really be advocating for people to not read the lore?
Yeah - matter of opinion. Yet I think the majority would find it more logical to have the evolution mechanic on Viktor rather than some alien dude, suit yourself. (aswell as Kha'Zix's current passive onto Nocturne, Nocturne Redesign has this, Morello himself has approved of Nocturne being one of the most 'misleading'/'dissapointing' characters, as he completely looks like the ultimate assasin but doesn't really live up to this when coming to gameplay)

So yeah, matter of opinion.

As for your last question; Besides, should we really be advocating for people to not read the lore?

That's not the point - people shouldn't be forced to read lore, they should be encouraged to read lore to enhance the experience of playing the champions if they are interested in the background of the character. There's a difference between forcing people into it and 'making lore cool to read if people are interested in reading the lore'.

I didn't really find it satisfying to read the entire Graves lore and reading that one sentence that says 'he has a special gun modified for him' justifying the fact he has this weird smoke screen ability on his kit. Whereas I did want to read why the heck Vi punches people like this, how she became this character. Suit yourself.

No offense dude - your opinion matters very much and you've made some good and interesting points (enlightening on Ezreal as a character especially) but the parts where you say we contradict ourselves concerning lore is just where you misunderstand us - champions shouldn't be lore dependant, they should enhance the theming going into greater detail on the background of the champion, the theme of the champion should already be readable in game and on splash art.

PS: Pretty much Mordekaisers problem aswell, hotlinked in the OP to a thread where IronStylus entirely says the same thing. You are forced to read the lore why this guy in bulky armour makes ghosts out of his slain enemies and acting more like a mage rather than a dude who smashes the giant mace all the time.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megling View Post
Just read through most of the redsigns


No off, but almost all of those are really bad :/ keep up the effort though. I like a lot of the ideas however.
Thank you for your constructive feedback, with this I hope to improve the Redesigns because I completely know what's wrong with them now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Thank you for your constructive feedback, with this I hope to improve the Redesigns because I completely know what's wrong with them now.
Just pointing out that this is sarcasm! Not in mean spirits, though-just the original comment was silly.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

phatcat09

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I'm going to be Brazzen and say that your overzealous release schedule is keeping you from making characters with consistent theme and depth.

If you could make the live-balance process a part of the story such as the champion developing their skills or even radically changing them to better suit fights on the fields of justice you'd be able to justify so many more things and so many more radical changes without belaboring the community.

It drives me Insane when people refuse to see the beauty of technical design that's woven into the story.

When the opportunity is right there in front of them, but people are so stuck on this 1 - 2 - 3 *Done* *maybe rework* line of thinking.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Leoric Wuju

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I think we can agree on one thing that releasing new champions at a slower rate can help with this

A lot of unpolished champions (note that not bad, but unpolished) was released in 2012. As mentioned and admitted by the Reds Zyra and Syndra, etc.

At least the developers are seeing this and have made the thread sticky, add to that the recent visual updates on champions like LeBlanc and Master Yi~~ a sign that 2013 is going to be a year of polishing League as a whole.