Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by innervation View Post
Sorry, but I'm not that impressed with the OP. I wanted to post my thoughts now, having read it all, but without reading any responses. Will edit after I read through the rest of the thread.

First: Champion themes - You're right, the more depth and breadth there is to character theme, the more fun the experience. But this is a competitive game. Balance needs to be the top priority, or everything else turns to mush. No professional circuit. No million dollar prizes. No multimillion user player base.

Rammus shouldn't have a taunt because armadillos don't taunt people in real life? Or because mechanically and physically it doesn't make sense for anything to taunt you via making surface contact with their skin? Tough beans! I want my champions designed holistically. Both what is it fun to play as (theme) and what is it fun to do (mechanics/combat effectiveness).

I'm sure it's great to take an 'ivory tower' approach and try to apply it to League - and it does apply, but I don't think that you're thinking through all of the implications that would entail...

which segues nicely into my next issue with the OP: 'counterplay'. Again, I get what you're saying and agree with you on the surface - you're not lying. Panth spear and Taric stun have no counterplay other than -stay out of their range, or, -flash when they flash, (which is really the same thing). But this is true of every skill. Every skill has a cast range. And while other skills have much more complex counterplay, the simplest, most effective play is to stay out of range while contributing - anything else will cost you a cooldown or damage taken.

Not every ability in the game needs to have super in depth counterplay; if every ability were remade like the way you described trundle ult being remade it (and this will sound familiar) will severely impact balance. Imagine: Oh, the enemy team has a Malzahar...I think I'll get QSS to...oh wait, I need it for Trundle ult too. and <insert 4 other reworked skills here that now have cleanse-based counterplay>.

Again I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think you're making this out to be a bigger problem than it is, and I don't think you've thoroughly thought through the implications of what these changes would entail on LoL as a whole. It would be a HUGE allotment of Riot's resources to gain a benefit that is, in my eyes, quite small, and possibly more trouble than it's worth.

1: Why downvote this person (this post that disagrees with the OP)? In this type of thread opinions should be said and done. Now if they say "your an art fggot shutup" Downvote them to hell. But there shouldn't be anything wrong with alittle discourse.

2. This may be a valid point, but I feel its time stipulated. Lets say maybe right now, for maybe a year this really is only worth a small fraction of attention. And so all this critical thinking on design is just hogwash that is fine where it is at at the moment. Even if the OP is wrong in their opinions, their worries and intent is a realistic situation. That's not to say riot hasn't already given time /is giving time to this right now, but this is a hard wrought post that seeks to aid or begin to help riot supply ideas incase they themselves have not thought it up.

As the common phrase goes, nothing last forever, and while the now is fine, what later may come will replace what is eventually.


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Voliboar

Senior Member

01-22-2013

I feel like.. This whole thing is just a big work application...


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ShadowStormLOL

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Of course, I'll never know how these turn out until they're actually programmed into the game--be it LoL or LoL 2--but with defined strengths and weaknesses, you can't really go wrong.
Having read more of these champs, I want to reiterate an earlier question that I didn't see anybody answer:

What is the game you're going to program these in to? You say they aren't meant to go into LoL as-is, so what is LoL 2? Same basic MOBA, with a straight roster-swap?

I can see the love you put into these, and some are really, really cool (most, actually). But the more I read them, the more I realize they won't all work in LoL as currently designed. You have a lot of things that require big effects and/or visual noise to communicate. Wukong, for instance - you specifically mention him adding to the noise of a teamfight by jumping in with his clones.

How does that make the game better? That's just chaos. Fun for the Wukong player? Sure! Fun for the other 9 people who can't figure out what the hell is going on? Not so much.

Idk, I see what you're going for, but I can't help but feel that it's too idealistic. Draven works great, but he works on the technical gameplay level too - I think lots of your champs lose out here in favor of themes.


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Josh de Tonreau

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
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-Akali. the Fist of Shadow.
Nitpick-champion - she was already kind of a stealthy sneaky shadow'ish Assasin, but a bit more emphasis on that with this redesign.

-Alistar, the Minotaur.

Current Alistar is quite a mess and is a perfect example of a design that restricts Riot of having other cool abilities in the game.

What's absolutely bull-like ? Imagine an ability called 'Bullrush' - a bull charging up with anger and then dashing forward ? That's very characteristic for a bull !
His kit is very satisfying however though it is little relevant to him as a bull (the random heal in his kit especially)
With this Redesign Alistar gets to be an actual raging bull now, this guy is going to charge after you.

If you like to read more reasoning behind Alistar Redesign please read question/answer 7.2 of our FAQ:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493 (don't mind the OP - scroll down to the FAQ wich is the 3rd post in the thread I believe)

PS: His current kit is so satisfying and cool that it has been replaced onto a more-fitting character/visual appearance, if you are interested you can checkout 'Edmund' one of the placeholder champions - in this case the placeholder of Alistar's current kit.

-Amumu , the Sad Mummy.

Nit-Pick champion, a bit more emphasis on being a lonely mummy: Passive, Q, W, E unchanged, only changes his R:
Instead of ‘randomly’ giving him a CC ability for the sake of CC ability he now has an ability that does something similar but fits his theme and appearance: The Sad Mummy actually gets to hug people now. Very funny.

-Anivia, the Cryophoenix

Similar like Alistar, the appearance of these characters have little relevance to their kits. Tell me, does Anivia play like an actual phoenix, an actual ice bird ? No, only her passive lives up to this sort of character.
Her Q, W, E and R are just ice magic spells, you wouldn't expect a bird to do these abilities - you rather would think a 'generic wizard' specialized in ice magic would cast this as the abilities simply are 'popping out ice spells out of the blue'.
Anivia Redesign - She actually gets to play like an actual ice bird/phoenix now.

--Annie, the Dark Child.

Readability, depth and counterplay are Annie's problem - quite a mess. For example she has a needlessly added stun-mechanic in her kit that doesn't make sense (as you wouldn't expect fire to stun, readability flaw) and so on. On top of that, the entire stun-mechanic barely has counterplay: 'If you are in range, you are going to get stunned'
Besides all of that she tends to have a very very low skillcap, wich can get quite boring.
While 'a child with a giant demonic teddybear' is a very cool theme and appearance, she currently doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of 'visual strength'.
Her current kit lays more emphasis on Annie doing all the damage while the Giant Demonic Teddybear you would expect to do all the damage is left in the dust, it's more of a minor extra in her kit..

With Annie Redesign this is fixed, the sadistic crazy child gets to manipulate the giant demonic teddybear, wich is more realistic as it makes sense, greatly improving her readability. (much like current Orianna gets to manipulate her ball).
Annie Redesign ultimately lives up to better theming, better readability, more counterplay and depth - the ultimate 'Little Sister - Big Daddy playstyle'

-Ashe, the Frost Archer.
‘No really, put that apple on your head.’ – Ashe

Nitpick-champion, already much of a frost arches though now she actually gets to aim and be precise (emphasis on being the ultimate ‘bow’ champion, rather than only having her ult capturing this aspect currently.
So basically more specific themed playstyle, laying more emphasis on using a bow: aiming, being precise.

-Brand, the Burning Vengeance.

Click here for detailed reasoning behind this Redesign - read there why current Brand is kind of a mess:

Long story short; currently he has theming, readability and depth problems. Fire doesn't stun and is needlessly added to his kit (readability and theming flaw) - as his theme and playstyle should be more specific on how fire works in the first place: Fire spreads and burns (only his passive, E and ult capture this currently).

With Redesign Brand you actually get to be a Master of Fire - rather than a dude who has a specific combo all the time (low skillcap/depth) while making more sense along the way.

-Caitlyn, the Sheriff of Piltover.

Looking at her splash art - where she has insanely big scopes on her immensely big rifle (sniper rifle) - you wouldn't expect this chick to lay down a few traps and shoot nets and stuff (readability and theming problem).

With Redesign Caitlyn she actually gets to snipe people now, as 'Sniper' was her entire theme in the first place.
Don't come at us with the 'her theme is Sheriff argument', we've dismantled this argument in our FAQ and falls under Burden of Knowledge - as her lore would justify the unlogical flaws of her kit.

-Cho'Gath, the Terror of the Void.

Cho'Gath - kind of a mess aswell in terms of counterplay, readability and theming.

Readability: 2 out of 4 abilities have to do with spikes while the spikes aren't really attached to his visual appearance - you wouldn't expect this creature to do such stuff.
His silence, even worse. Looking at his splash art you wouldn't possible guess this guy is going to scream blue stuff in front of him silencing you for X duration, on top of that it barely has counterplay 'if you are in range you'll eat the silence'.

Redesign Cho'Gath has an extremely unique playstyle and is very much fitting to him as a character as the entire kit is designed around his original source of inspiration - Cho'Gath placeholder included (the placeholder of a champion that's all about eating stuff and getting bigger) !

-Corki, the Daring Bombardier.

More emphasis on being an actual pilot , more of a defined pilot/'flying a plane' playstyle (as he has way more characteristic abilities therefore also improving on readability) - while making Corki less straight forward along the way.

Diana, Scorn of the Moon

'Moontheme' isn't very readable (because astral bodies are both too vast and too vague to build a solid and readable kit off of) - none of Diana's abilities really make sense, they are pretty random and adding 'moonparticles' just to make them fit is kind of a bad sign.
Diana Redesign has an entire 'Scythe' playstyle hacking and slashing and killing her enemies while still maintaining her high mobility gameplay.

-Dr. Mundo, the Mad Man of Zaun.

More distinctive playstyle with appropriate abilities that match this playstyle and theme.

Place-holder champion. -Edmund, the Abomination.

My first reaction when I red ItemsGuy's Alistar redesign was: 'No no please no, okay maybe Alistar's current kit doesn't really fit him as the ultimate raging bull, but god his current kit is so fun and satisfying !'

As I was in a skype conversation with him, he laughed and sent me a link.
Introducing 'Edmund' the champion with Alistar's current kit that fit him perfectly, readable, appropriate, and most of all: a very fun and fitting appearance + lore making a very cool and unified character. Oh yeah; Edmund would be the first black champion entering the League, people have been asking/wondering for one for quite some time now.

Edmund is an extremely readable character, everything he does makes sense as it fits with his visual appearance.

-Ezreal, the Prodigal Explorer

His theme is more defined - Ezreal barely lives up to the 'ultimate exploxer champion'
With Ezreal Redesign - Ezreal gets to be the ultimate explorer. You are encouraged to move, A LOT.

-Fiddlesticks, the Harbinger of Doom.

Yet again quite a mess in terms of readability, counterplay, depth and theming.
First of all: Fiddlesticks just looks like a scarecrow, he doesn't really play like one as the most characteristic thing about a scarecrow is that they are static and you rather not get close to them.

Readability: You wouldn't expect this character to drain life like this (still very awesome therefore removed to another Redesign) - etcetera.

Counterplay: The well-known annoying fear, if you are in range for this ability ? NP go ahead and eat a 3second fear. Have a nice day.

Depth: Fiddlesticks is extremely repetitive, every game you get to do the same thing over and over again. If you have played Fiddlesticks alot I think most of us would consider him rather dull/a bit boring, it's always the same, walk up to people: E then Q W, for teamfights: R in, (zyhonas), pop cooldowns. Not alot of specific depth or decision-making.

Redesign Fiddlesticks actually behaves and plays like a scarecrow now, having more depth along the way.

-Fiora, the Grand Duelist.

Theming and readability problem - Current R: Try to hit it with on as many targets as you can - not really fitting for a champion who's supposed to be the ultimate duelist.

Redesign Fiora has a more defined kit/playstyle as a duelist, she cuts her opponents with style.
Sidenote: Fiora's current ult is an extremely cool ability however, therefore moved to another Redesign.

-Fizz, the Tidal Trickster.

You expect this creature from the sea to have more interaction with the deep sea - more interaction with his shark-buddy.
Redesign Fizz is focused on still being an extremely mobile slippery character while revolving more around his shark aswell - not just an 'hey I'll shoot this here and something will knock the target up'

-Galio, the Sentinel's Sorrow

Rather than a bunch of unreadable abilities slapped onto Galio he now has a true 'Gargoyle' playstyle, originally ItemsGuy thought he'd keep Galio out as he would look to similar to Fiddlesticks Redesign yet he got inspiration to give Galio a complete new flavour, very much different from Fiddlesticks.

-Gangplank, the Saltwater Scourge.

The pirate that is more of a pirate now: A pirate is a sneaky unfair character, they plunder/take what they want too and are gone before you could even react.
You'd probably come back at us with 'Redesign Gangplank is totally unfair and not-counterplayable' - wrong.

ItemsGuy wants and got rid off abilities without counterplay if they are needlessly added to a kit not fitting theme or playstyle.

As explained above - pirates are unfair and get what they need before you can respond (QUICK) while with this Redesign he still has defined strengths and weaknesses - Gangplank is about small skirmishes, if you get him to commit to a fight in the long run, you'll notice you are getting the upper hand.

-Garen, the Might of Demacia.

Spin to win kids – no drastic changes, but makes sense what he did change. Fine.

-Gragas, the Rabble Rouser.

Appropriate, logical changes in terms of readability and theming.

-Graves, the Outlaw.

Current Graves has some readability and theming issues.

Shotgun manliness ? Currently his Q and R do reflect this very well - however especially his smoke screen is totally out of place - it doesn't have anything to do with a 'Shotgun-theme'

Yet again - please don't use lore as an excuse here as we've dismantled that argument in our FAQ, falling under 'Burden of Knowledge' - people shouldn't be forced to read Graves's lore and see he has a 'modified shotgun' made for him, justifying the unlogical flaw/ability in his kit; the Smoke screen ability.
Redesign Graves is 100% full Shotgun manliness.

Sidenote: The removed ability is still very cool though yet probably fitting better for a champion that uses smoke entirely - I believe ItemsGuy has a kit/champion somewhere living up to a pure 'smoke'ish' playstyle (I've red the design and gods it's cool).

-Hecarim, Shadow of War.

Nit-pick champion - more emphasis on being an actual minotaur while adding more depth (getting rid of the braindead Q mashing)
Redesign Hecarim has minor changes more fitting to his theme and appearance.

-Heimerdinger, the Revered Inventor.
THIS GUY GETS TO INVENT HIS OWN SH*T.

-Janna, the Storm's Fury.

Redesign Janna gets to be the ultimate Windmage, having a very specific playstyle and presence in a team adding more depth and better readability to her. (Currently a 'random' unpredicatable windshield plus a non-counterable 'If you are in range you are going to eat this' slow)
Obviously, current Monsoon and Howling Gale are still there as they fit her new specific playstyle perfectly.

-Karthus, the Death Singer.

Theming and readability problems.

Q: Exploding skittles ?, W: wall that randomly slows, E: damaging over time circle around him - none of these abilities are relevant to him as being a lich/'Death Singer' - argueably aside from his ult right now.

Karthus Redesign gets to be the ultimate champion that uses some groove and boogy now, having a defined unique playstyle that is relevant to him as character and is readable.

Note: Similar like saying the Smokescreen on Graves isn’t really appropriate but is still very cool for a champion that uses smoke entirely, same thing goes for Karthus ult: ItemsGuy has a few champions designed of his own where he has converted these abilities to complete new characters/champions.

-Kassadin, the Void Walker.

Slight changes, more emphasis of 'cutting through space'. Obviously keeping Rift Walk in there, as that's core of his character and playstyle.

-Kayle, the Judicator.

Quite a mess in terms of readability, theming and counterplay.

Theming & Readability: You don't expect an angel to throw a red magic ball that slows you, not only does that make her unlogical and unfitting to an 'Angel' character - it has no counterplay on top of that as it's 'If you are in range you'll eat this spell'

Redesign Kayle has a specific playstyle and kit that reflects theme and improving on readability and counterplay.

-Kennen, the Heart of the Storm.

Nitpick-champion, Kennen already was a cool pure ‘lightning rat’, though kit redesigned to a high mobility playstyles with more emphasis how lightning ‘chains’ and seaks out and hits nearby targets.

Basically kept the same concept but made it more unique, more of a defined playstyle and less of a ‘Hello I’m Kennen the walking ult’.
Redesign Kennen is more defined (taking the actual behaviour of electricity into account, therefore improving on readability aswell) - and has more depth.

Kha'Zix, the Voidreaver.

Despite him being one of the most readable characters currently (you understand why he does what he does, huge wings, spikes on his back and huge claws) - though, he doesn't really reflect a certain unique playstyle that matches his appearance, he's basically a character that got some abilities slapped on to him that work well together, the fact that he looks as he looks is not really relevant to his kit.

This includes his passive and his evolving mechanic.

Passive: Little relevant to him as a character - moved to Nocturne Redesign (as this fits Nocturne WAY better)
Evolving Mechanic: Little relevant to him as a character (please don't mention the lore argument here as we've dismantled this poor argument to be Burden of Knowledge as it would require people to read his entire lore to understand why he has this mechanic) - move on to Viktor Redesign (makes sense, this dude is an inventor in a robotsuit, he gets to improve/evolve his suit)

Redesign Kha'Zix has changes for a more dedicated/specific playstyle that reflects his theme/appearance better.


-Kog'Maw, the Mouth of the Abyss.

Current Kog'Maw is pretty readable, yet stuff like his passive does not contribute to his other abilities. Does it make sense ? Sure it does, a toxic corrosive alien exploding - it just doesn't sync/unify with his kit at all.

Redesign Kog'Maw has more emphasis on capturing an 'acid' feel and playstyle, wich currently only Bio-Arcane Barrage and Caustic Spittle capture.

-Leblanc, the Deciever.
Riot, please.
‘the Deciever’ is barely where Leblanc is known for currently. Instead of being a huge misleading surprising character/element her kit SHOULD’VE captured she’s more known for the ‘Omg noob champ Q R epic damage’ champion.

Redesign Leblanc she gets to be the ultimate deciever - decieving people and acting with the element of surprise.

-Lee Sin, the Blind Monk.
Quote from the 'Preseason Balance Update 2 Patch Preview':
'Remember the April Fool's Lee Sin champion spotlight where Phreak said this: Lee Sin is a ranged, melee, Tanky DPS, Assasin, Mage, Tank, Support, Jungler. He excells at everything ! - Unfortunately, that's too true at the moment. He forfills all those roles relatively effectively.'
Remember how we've mentioned 'OP release Jayce Syndrome' or the imbalance of the combination with turrets and two generic mage abilities on Heimerdinger (OP release Heimerdinger).
Lee sin is quite a mess in terms of counterplay, theming and readability, his entire kit is a mishmash of abilities that work well together but aren't defined, hence I've red a lot of comments since Lee Sin's release where people have continously been saying 'Lee Sin will never be balanced' - there is way too much in his kit and there's not a lot you can do about it. 'This guy will r@pe and camp you early but is weaker later on' is pretty lame.

Theme-wise, Lee sin doesn't play like he's a blind monk, it's just part of his appearance, not gameplay. (Aside from a MINOR part in his E ability)
Redesign Lee Sin focuses on being an actual blink monk that uses his monk abilities/senses to try and locate the enemy with sound and patience and then beating them with masterful marterial arts.

Here's the link of the patch preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drNRCr8KTPA

Leona, the Radiant Dawn

Much like Diana, 'Sun' isn't a very readable theme (because astral bodies are both too vast and too vague to build a solid and readable kit off of), while still keeping the element/part of the character in there, Leona is more focused on a playstyle with her huge shield now. (Her sword isn't relevant to her in any way anyway, she doesn't do damage with it really and 'dashing up to people with a sword ? How exactly ?)

Redesign Leona is the ultimate Shield-Champion now, specifically focused on Defensive play.


Lulu, the Fae Sorceress

Lulu's abilities aren't really readable, she spews out random magic lines that should slow you and so on, she could still very much be a character if her entire readability and kit revolves around Pix: Making Pix the centerpiece of her playstyle and kit, while keeping alot of abilities/elements of current Lulu in there, such as her ult and polymorph.

Redesign Lulu improves on readability and theming - making Pix the centerpiece of her kit.

-Malphite, the Shard of the Monolith.

Malphite is a huge mess in terms of theming, readability, counterplay and depth.

Readability: Magical moving rock that slows you ? Not really readable.

Depth & Counterplay, concerning depth; Malphite R's in and then presses Q, W, E mindlessly after.
Current counterplay ? 'Initiate before this guy does', not a lot you can do here.

Malphite Redesign focuses on being the ultimate walking rock with great force improving on theme, readability and providing more options of counterplay.

-Malzahar, the Prophet of the Void.

Currently, Malzahar is pretty much a champion with some abilities slapped onto him, his abilities don't really reflect a specific readable playstyle from the get-go.
Redesign Malzahar focuses on being the ultimate master of the crabarmy, cool as balls - having his Voidlings as the centerpiece of his kit.

-Maokai, the Twisted Treant.

Redesign Maokai focuses on being an actual treant playing like a living angry forest and he'll make sure that he'll grow the ground to his advantage making him a very terratorial grumpy old stump.

To read about more about this reasoning behind this Redesign/explanation of why his current kit is pretty lackluster, read this: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493

And question/answer 7.2 of our FAQ: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493 (don't mind the OP and scroll all the way down to the FAQ, wich is the third post in that thread I believe)

-Master Yi, the Wuyu Bladesman.

Master Yi - one of the oldest characters in the game, currently has quite some issues, especially in terms of readability and theme.

Readability & Theme: His ult has nothing to do with his 'Samurai' theme, it's just a needlessly added ability where they thought it would be cool for him to run faster.
His heal ? Probably one of the most mis-placed, most unreadable abilities in the game, it has nothing to do with his theme and appearance, therefore you wouldn't expect this at all.

Redesign Master Yi focuses on having a 'True Samurai' playstyle: They are swift and certain.

-Miss Fortune, the Bounty Hunter.

Current Miss Fortune is allright in terms of readability and counterplay, yet theme-wise she barely lives up to her theme, 'Bounty Hunter' is just a name slapped to her as she doesn't really hunt at all - arguably a little with her current passive.

Right now she just shoots a lot - it's not really relevant to her as the 'Bounty Hunter champion, so guess what;
Redesign Miss Fortune actually gets to hunt for bounty now.

-Morgana, the Fallen Angel.

Opposing to her sister - 'Fallen/dark angel' isn't really as readable as 'Angelic Angel' as a theme for a character, that doesn't mean ItemsGuy couldn't make Morgana more specific and readable though.

Whereas Kayle is very Aggressive, Morgana is a defensive type of character compared to her current state: Mage with random abilities attached to her - not really relevant to her theme or appearance (her ult does this a little though)

Redesign Morgana is one of my ultimate freakin' favourites out of all these redesigns of ItemsGuy, read it and sketch the situation: You are the support yet the freakin' centerpiece of teamfighting, everyone literally should move and BE around you.

This playstyle/redesign reminded me of an awesome clip out of the movie troy (scroll to 1:25, watch from there), suit yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA

A moving defensive bulk of people working together ? Awesome !

Nami, the Tidecaller

Nami is quite a mess, it's not like they made her the 'watermage' they promised, all they did it come up with a kit with abilities that a support should have, not whats characteristic entirely, Nami Redesign improves on readability and has characteristic theming abilities, with an entire new kit. (while keeping her giant ult wave in there, as it's pretty iconic and cool - it just gets to work differently, more readable and awesome).


-Nasus, the Corator of the Sands

Current Nasus has a pretty huge problem: 'Yo guys I'm going top lane and going to AFK farm for 40 minutes.'
Not only is this passive and quite boring, it's pretty unreliable aswell (hence Nasus hasn't seen any competitive play for like an age). On top of that, current Nasus only farms up his Q, it's a mechanic that does not effect the rest of his abilities, screwing over readability a bit and depth.
Redesign Nasus remains having a patient playstyle where your effectiveness revolves around spending your collected souls (not permanent-collected souls, you can collect lots of souls in a small amount of time with a cap and you spend them by using an ability).

This 'Keeper of Souls' playstyle made Nasus more of a readable and a defined character, that should also fix his current 'Guys cya in 40 minutes got to farm Q' problem.

-Nidalee, the Bestial Huntress.

Currently there is not much of a 'Bestial Huntress' in Nidalee - just because she has a low CD pounce doesn't mean she is a defined hunter.
Redesign Nidalee completely focuses on being a hunter, fixing her current unreliable AP playstyle along the way.

-Nocturne, the Eternal Nightmare

Currently, looking at Nocturne's splash art you get the chills, you'd expect this character to literally haunt people and kill stuff - I’ve always felt Nocturne should be like this Redesign.

However, currently, if Nocturne does not snowball (wich he is even encouraged not to do so as a jungler to give away kills) he mostly ends up being the b*tch of a team.
Ult in, walk out. Building Nocturne with alot of damage, you’ll die. Build him tanky ? You barely feel having a presence as a dude who SHOULD literally haunt scare and assasinate people.

Now I'm very well aware of the fact that Nocturne has seen some competitive play in lane - he could still be more awesome and more readable and more defined as a character and playstyle, the Redesign truely living up to the expect of haunting targets. (This new passive fits Nocturne way better than the current holder of this passive).

He’ll get to haunt, scare, and kill people now.Hhe’ll be able to do everything what you think he should do when looking at his splash art, rather than turning out to be the ‘ulting meatwall' most of the time.
Also tweaked his spellshield as it wasn't readable at all (it is not relevant to his character - the ability was needlessly added) - changed to a more fitting ability.
Lots of these are poorly done. Leblanc basically has no damage now


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innervation

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
1: Why downvote this person (this post that disagrees with the OP)? In this type of thread opinions should be said and done. Now if they say "your an art fggot shutup" Downvote them to hell. But there shouldn't be anything wrong with alittle discourse.

2. This may be a valid point, but I feel its time stipulated. Lets say maybe right now, for maybe a year this really is only worth a small fraction of attention. And so all this critical thinking on design is just hogwash that is fine where it is at at the moment. Even if the OP is wrong in their opinions, their worries and intent is a realistic situation. That's not to say riot hasn't already given time /is giving time to this right now, but this is a hard wrought post that seeks to aid or begin to help riot supply ideas incase they themselves have not thought it up.

As the common phrase goes, nothing last forever, and while the now is fine, what later may come will replace what is eventually.
Thanks for being reasonable!

As a final word, I'll point out that the complaints in the original post apply very much to a champion like Sion (where time investment makes sense - they're already doing a visual/splash art rework, hit the theme now if you can. The mechanics too.).

But stuff like 'the brand 'w' isn't fiery enough'? That's just total nit-picking imo.


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Cha0sniper

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh de Tonreau View Post
Lots of these are poorly done. Leblanc basically has no damage now
Please don't quote the entirety of epically long posts like that one, especially if you're just going to leave a one-line comment.


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by innervation View Post
Thanks for being reasonable!

As a final word, I'll point out that the complaints in the original post apply very much to a champion like Sion (where time investment makes sense - they're already doing a visual/splash art rework, hit the theme now if you can. The mechanics too.).

But stuff like 'the brand 'w' isn't fiery enough'? That's just total nit-picking imo.
With a post like this, and with how quick the forum is to attach, I'd be afraid things would start to be stifled if things aren't "positive enough".

I will agree some things seem very spot on, and others unreasonable. However I will always ask myself even for the most frivolous thing "what if they are right"? Now mind you this does not mean I would then considering someone raving that whites are the master race as a possibility (but that goes into a deeper philosophical thing for me).

But for the brand thing I will say this: I have always been more about the deeper meaning, and screw how pretty it looks. I'd drive the worst looking car if it was always dependable, never needed fixing, was comfortable/etc. And when I first started playing LoL and even when Ironstylus started posting, I had a bias of casting a red like him, even so the subject matter as unimportant. But the truth was I couldn't ideally let something so seemingly superficial get in the way of the fact looks/feeling do in fact play a role in perception.

With that in mind I will always be amused when someone says (x champion/ability is amazing/sucks) because for me it doesn't matter enough to actually make me make a staunch view(if playing them sucks however.. I don't care if they are a godess, i won't find them any better). But it does make me consider, what if Brand's W was more akin to his theme? More AWESOME?! I play him, I love him sometimes, would i be even more in love if such a detail were improved? And even if I wasn't impressed, the world ins't about me, what if 1 million other players exploded over an improved brand? I'd have no stauch objection about improving the gaming quality of so many people so simply.

Sorry for the walls of text, I suck at kiting ideas and separating them. But this is simply my thought process and how to slowly digest this very heavy post the op has given. Because at face value, this would probably seem like space filler, wall of text that ultimately is just for impressing someone at riot, if not more so saying why riot is wrong and "they" could do better.

But again face value often time is wrong and can be rectified through time and understanding.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-22-2013

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Originally Posted by Cha0sniper View Post
What happens when you have a champion concept and kit that is awesome thematically, but doesn't work in practice due to being over/underpowered, or just completely useless in the context of League?
If something has defined strengths and defined weaknesses, balance is no issue--if it turns out to be overpowered at first, shift the sliding scale over to their weaknesses, and vice-versa. This is balance by design, which champs like Heimer and Irelia both lack--Heimer being part mage, part Revered Inventor, and Irelia just having too much stuff in her kit to really balance out for good.

Also, with these kind of arguments, I'm always tempted to bring the Tesla Factor into the argument but "I CAN FEEL GAME DESIGN WITH MY HANDS" isn't necessarily the most compelling or sane-sounding argument! And again, I don't just focus on theme, I focus on balance as well.

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I'm going to use one of your champion redesigns as an example to make my point. You do a great job of turning LeBlanc into someone who truly deserves the Deceiver title, at the cost of completely gutting her as a viable pick. She has two spells that do nothing but fuel her "Deceiver" theme, without actually providing useful gameplay.
You seem to be using the "numbers are power!" approach and are forgetting that League of Legends is a game played by humans. God forbid I include psychological aspects into play! And even then, by taking that advantage element of surprise, you're also boosting your offensive capabilities as well! That moment of apprehension of a player going "wait is that Rammus or LeBlanc? (It's LeBlanc)" is the only opportunity your Rammus needs to come completely out of left field while LeBlanc pops an enhanced spell from her Deceive and spells the enemy's fate. If you want strict numerical advantages, LeBlanc wouldn't be the champ for you--but if you thrive off of mind games, there's no better pick!

She also isn't a competitive pick anyway, because she falls off immediately after laning phase because she only has one instance of single-target burst and then she's useless for 30 seconds.

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Beyond that, the spell enhancement on her R and the nature of her passive scream that you still want her to be a mage-assassin, but the fact that she only has two damage-dealing spells utterly cripples that, in the same way that live LeBlanc is crippled once she can no longer use her dash to deal damage or hang around long enough to trigger the root on her E. She simply will NOT do enough damage to be viable unless her spells have short cooldowns on the level of Vlad's Q and E, and attaching a silence and a blind to them pretty much nips that possibility in the bud.
Playing redesign LeBlanc like current LeBlanc is a recipe for disaster. Is she a little more teamwork/coordination-reliant? Of course--how else are you going to pull off convincing Deceives? But it doesn't cripple her power by any means. She gives up a bit of damage output for lots of utility, and grants her team a psychological advantage that no other champion can provide.

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Sure, I can blink around and harass while using my clone to confuse and avoid damage, but that's all I have. If my opponent gets tired of it and decides to all-in me, i'm completely boned. It's like AP nidalee if she didn't have cougar form to finish off opponents after poking them down, and it's not like AP nidalee is that great in team fights as it is (great split pusher, great at cleaning up almost-dead enemies, horrible at fighting straight up).
Of course--if you played the Deceiver in a way the Deceiver wouldn't be played, you would be "boned!" The trick with LeBlanc is to avoid that sort of head-to-had confrontation. Your enemy can't go "all in" if you have incredible escaping power with your clone, and avoiding that damage is how you gain access to yours! That's how the Deceiver works, man, you're not Rambo. Be underhanded!

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Or, to give a more recent example, Vi's ult at one point (I'm honestly not sure if this was only on the PBE or if it made it to live, I could have sworn it did but I don't remember reading a patch note that removed it) applied a stack of Denting Blows. This was removed because it made her burst too silly by allowing her to double-proc W with a simple R-auto-E-Q-E-auto basically unavoidable combo. Even though it was incredibly thematic for her most powerful punch to apply Denting Blows, it was removed for balance reasons. This is the point on which I think we disagree, that balance (and good gameplay, as just because a champion is fun for the person playing it doesn't mean it's fun for their opponent; see Shaco) must always take priority over thematic appropriateness.
I think you've got a misconception here--champions aren't designed to be fun to play against, they're designed to be fun to play as, and fun to counter-play. The fun to playing against Shaco is foiling his plans with strong map awareness and the occasional truesight (or sticking close to your allies), that's the incentive to beat him. Likewise with Vi (if I were to redesign her, I'd change her ult and innate)--the fun of counter-playing her would be to dodge her blows (again, why I'd change her ult), as if she winds up that Vault Breaker and you whiff out of the way, she doesn't really have much to keep you in place! It's the same feeling as dodging an extremely heavy punch--now that they've put all their weight behind it, that's where you keep on using that momentum to give them a tap and push them over the edge.

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I guess what I'm saying is, building a champion to fit a theme is great, and should be striven for as much as possible. But when the chips come down, you need to have a cohesive, readable, useful kit and unfortunately, chaining yourself to thematics and refusing to bend (I think this is the bit I have the most problem with, how inflexible you are on this point) is only going to hurt your design in the end.
Again, I have never claimed to prize thematics over gameplay! I design with both, hand-in-hand. Themes are useful because they're already there--if they're defined, they give way to defined playstyles and defined counterplay. Themes are helpful and great when tying stuff together, but I'm not just throwing things around to JUST be thematic! If you're looking at something and going "no, this wouldn't work"--chances are that you are just unfamiliar with such a concept within the narrow frame that is LoL's current champ design. Like with the LeBlanc example--her power isn't with "just numbers"--it's through sewing confusion and doubt in the enemy team. Is it thematic? Yes. Is it hard-coded into the game? No--it's something that affect players, which play the game. Same deal with Fiddlesticks--he grants a psychological advantage.

Another example--Twisted Fate isn't good in teamfights, so you'd automatically think "ehhh, this guy isn't good like those other mages that are good at teamfights," but then why is he picked so consistently in high-leveled play? He gives his team the psychological leverage of being able to show up just about anywhere, at any time. A well-played TF would keep fights as unfair as possible--opting for ganks and ambushes over teamfights or siege-based play. Number-wise, his abilities aren't very impressive (he doesn't even have a damage-dealing ult, and his innate only gives his team gold!), but it's that huge amount of utility and psychological advantage that he gives his team. Same applies to the redesign LeBlanc!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by rusoX 666 View Post
Sorry but, shouldn't theming be followed up by lore? Then why a champion like Zyra has such distinction. Why Riot makes such lore and doesnt implement it in the gameplay. Yeah, it would make her OP at some point, but you can balance the game if you know how to do it.
There shouldnt be a distinction between a champions lore and theming. They make a lore for something, and right now its just to entertain people by making them believe that an X champion has a past, but when they play that champion they find out that their gameplay is most of the times different to what the lore says.
Let me redirect you to the OP: specifically, the quote from Jesse Schell regarding theming.

In short? If it doesn't work with the theming, it goes.

If you have to read the lore to understand how a champion works, you are giving the player homework. Imagine, having to read 110 short stories just to have a basic grasp of the game. It's not a very pretty picture!

There is the central theme, which ties together all other aspects of a champion. When lore, appearance, and kit/playstyle all resonate with that central theme, that's when you have a truly unified champion! A good example of this would be Thresh--his backstory gives depth to his playstyle, because both of them resonate with his theme. A bad example of this would be Nami--where it has nothing to do with her character or how she plays. Overall, not a very unified champion!


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowStormLOL View Post
Having read more of these champs, I want to reiterate an earlier question that I didn't see anybody answer:

What is the game you're going to program these in to? You say they aren't meant to go into LoL as-is, so what is LoL 2? Same basic MOBA, with a straight roster-swap?
This! Wouldn't even think of putting any of these redesigns in LoL as it is--it's like adding water to oil. It just wouldn't mix! But imagine, a glass full of pristine water--no oil involved!

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I can see the love you put into these, and some are really, really cool (most, actually). But the more I read them, the more I realize they won't all work in LoL as currently designed. You have a lot of things that require big effects and/or visual noise to communicate. Wukong, for instance - you specifically mention him adding to the noise of a teamfight by jumping in with his clones.
By "noise" hear I meant "chaos." Figurative language!

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How does that make the game better? That's just chaos. Fun for the Wukong player? Sure! Fun for the other 9 people who can't figure out what the hell is going on? Not so much.
His allies can tell which one is the real Wukong (just like Shaco), and for the enemy team--Oracle's!

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Idk, I see what you're going for, but I can't help but feel that it's too idealistic. Draven works great, but he works on the technical gameplay level too - I think lots of your champs lose out here in favor of themes.
Like I said, I don't sacrifice gameplay or themes. If a theme is great but I can't stick good gameplay to it, it's a no-go. If a game-play is good, but can't stick to a theme, it's a no-go. It works both ways!

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Originally Posted by Josh de Tonreau View Post
Lots of these are poorly done. Leblanc basically has no damage now
Think of them as new champions entirely. The worst thing you could do going into this is comparing how the champs play. Current LeBlanc plays nothing like LeBlanc "The Deceiver" would--so in the redesign, I've effectively made her "More LeBlanc." I could argue that LeBlanc right now isn't as "LeBlanc" as she could be!

Also, LeBlanc's damage more or less falls off after 20 minutes--pretty sure Veigar can do more single-target burst and has a team-wide stun and AoE damage on top of that. There's a reason she isn't seen in competitive play, yo.

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Originally Posted by YamiBelgarath View Post
Don't yell at me D= I'm not disagreeing with you lol
I was responding to someone who was saying that Zyra was either going to trash her opponents or get trashed by saying no, I don't think that would happen.
Haha, no, I was just addressing the same problem you were (I think)!