Black Cleaver nerf makes no sense...

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H0p0nP0p

Senior Member

12-16-2012

imho, black cleaver serves it's purpose.

i rmbr a rioter (i think xypherous) stated that... "as much as never dying is so awesome, we want to make sure that the game does not turn into a bunch of tanks never killing eachother."

this way, black cleaver AND ALL THE OTHER REDUCTION/PENETRATION made it popssible to kill tanks.

i'm glad that there's no more giant chogath or mundo and nobody can do n e thing about it cuz their armor is 300 and u can penetrate it alll the way to below 100 instead of just down to 150. this enabled comeback to be able to kill the enemy tank if the fight hits long enuf.


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Divine Origin

Member

12-16-2012

People; the black cleaver was made to kill TANKS.
But the flat armor penetration; made it possible to make squishier champs. Extremely squishy.
Base armor is ~60 or 70 on a squishy champion. at level 18. (Without armor runes/masteries)
So; if I'm an ADC; I need to build damage. If I build tanky.. whats the point of being an ADC?
So I build damage. Now this 4 black cleaver champion (Which also gets HP from it) can now build 1 warmog and he has a lot of HP that will be healing quite a bit.
Add a champion that does CC? Riven/Pantheon. With 4 BC's.
Anyone dies.
The purpose of the Black cleaver passive was to make it so TANKS would be shreded. This way; the higher the armor, the more armor is gone.
The black cleaver passive on the flat was to rebalance it.
Tanks are still vulnerable to the stacks; ADC's and such not so much.


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Night Killer

Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by destromau5 View Post
with the changes to armor and all the masteries, it is far easier to ignore more armor than tanks can build. if you build 150 armor, 30% is 45, so take it down to 105, with another 3% extra you get from masteries (because tanks get 5% and AD get 8%, and the flat armor/flat ArP masteries cancel each other out), drop it down to 100.5, then a Last Whisper which is another 35%, drop it down to 48, 3 black cleavers, and you have them down to 3 armor, so yes, basically true damage to a tank after 3 BCs,(and 150 armor is about normal for mid game)
YO u do u realize that's not how armor pen is calculated u no? The LW armor pen is calculated first bringing then down to 100 from150 from the 35 % then the BC percentage is shredded from the 100 armor not the original 150 since armor pen percentage are stacked multiplicately like tenacity so u can't have 100% of armor pen or tenacity equation is (their armor *(1 - armor pen percentage) *(1- another source of armor pen percent) then finally minus flat armor pen so it is impossible to have 100 percent armor pen or in your case impossible to get 83 % armor pen from LW plus BC and 8% percent masteries so back to my calculation u have about 100 armor after LW then after BC it becomes 70 armor then after the flat it becomes I think 50 so your case is wrong


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Night Killer

Member

12-16-2012

Can u guys just realize that 4 BC are stupid cuz why wud u want the 15 flat armor pen from stacking it? Ohhhhh 15 armor pen and a bit of extra hp and dmg that is so bad I rather get utility like a BT and seriously I just will build tons of hybrid tank items and stack hp since I'm not an idiot facing BC one BC is fine since the shred but 4 or even 2 are stupid my Darius warmogs boots shurelias upgraded agis randuins and 1 BC will own u anyday plus I jungle HAHA


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Everyone could itemize against it already.

Build a Randuin's Omen.

If you refuse to do that, then you've already blocked your own improvement as a player. You have reached your pinnacle, and will literally never get better until you are able to remove the idea that DPS do not build tank items.
See, this is where you're making the mistake.

Against a stacking black cleaver build, when the flat armor pen stacked, you get near zero benefit of the armor and might as well have just built the giant's belt. You literally need to itemize for almost pure armor to deal with just one cleaver with last whisper. once you start stacking the cleavers, the only reason to buy Randiuns is to use the activation to slow the guy's movement to hope you live by running.

You're missing one part here.

Black Cleaver is stupidly efficient if:
1. You're AD Based.
2. You're ability based.
3. Have natural defense steroids.

Randiun's budget is partially into the attack speed reduction, which doesn't mean much of anything if you don't rely on attack speed. Which is basically every Fighter except a few such as Jarvan and Irellia.

Because it's made for ability based AD champions, all the standard armor counters don't apply other than the armor value, which is shredded heavily and rendered mostly obsolete unless you're stacking all of them- Which you cannot afford to do unless you're the dedicated tank.

Frozen heart and Randiuns are less effective because most Fighters do not rely heavily on attack speed, usually through heavy ability rotations or attack resets.

Thornmail is just an armor item but does nothing against ability oriented ADs.

It was problematic, promoted a pigeon holed build, and severely broke several champions.

Is it the best build? No, not by a long shot. Balanced item builds in the long run will win out, but given games don't usually last that long, and Black Cleaver was providing an expedient build path to severely hinder other team compositions, there is zero reason that a nerf to the Black Cleaver should have been unexpected or unwarranted.


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Mistretul

Junior Member

01-17-2013

I am good and math but I really do not care about using it for LOL. But...

The BC nerf was needed. I saw a lot of people stacking BC because the item is very, very good.

I bet that people that people that cry because of the nerf are mostly ADC and Bruisers. Because they loose their imba status to some extent. Can the people that cry please point out another item that people stack? I only saw people stacking BC, maybe you can stack another item but never, ever more then 2. I saw 3 and more black cleavers (not in competitive play though). This means that this items is very powerful, more powerful then the rest (because you do not buy the rest, you buy BC) so it needs a nerf.

Should be easy enough to see:
If people stack it => nerf
if nobody buys it => buff


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Mistretul

Junior Member

01-17-2013

Duplicate, sorry the message did not appear for me the first time.


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Senior Member

01-18-2013

What nerf?


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

01-19-2013

geez stop digging up graves already this argument is over, about a month over


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ProtectTheMinion

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
geez stop digging up graves already this argument is over, about a month over
Like this?