@Riot, Vi's Q + Canceling w/ recall needs to be addressed.

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerve

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Vi, similar to Varus, can begin to charge her Q, and then use the recall button to instantly interrupt and cancel the effect. However, unlike Varus, Vi's ability instantly goes off cooldown, and allows her to begin charging another ability afterwards.

This presents us with a very difficult situation in lane: A Vi can constantly charge her Q, cancel it with a recall, and then begin to charge it again without consuming any mana. While this in itself isn't necessarily powerful, it allows a Vi player to create bad situations for their opponent in lane without any real counter play.

The player on the receiving end of this has 3 options:
1. Run out of range, out of the range of the Vi Q.
2. Run randomly attempting to dodge/juke the Vi Q.
3. Proceed as normally, playing the lane as if nothing has changed.

But here's the issues which the above mentioned counters:
1. You effectively zone yourself out of experience, and last hits. Vi never uses her Q, and can continue to zone you this way forever.
2. Probably the best solution as the three, however you will likely miss CS due to the random walking.
3. You get hit by Vi, taking a fully charged combo. She damages you based on % hp, and gains a shield so you cannot effectively trade in return. Don't forget that Q also CC's you when it hits.

After a few minutes of testing, this only works if you spec into the improved recall mastery in utility tree. I will upload a video showing this in a few moments.

TLDR: Vi can spam Q and cancel with recall in lane and give enemy laner little to no counter play options. Must have improved recall mastery.

Edit: Video here showing how the bug works http://www.twitch.tv/therealzerve/b/357757499.

Edit2: New video explaining how this is problematic to play against as a top laner http://www.twitch.tv/therealzerve/b/357824430.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lord GiantR

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Post it in the bug forum section. They watch that **** more than GD.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerve

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I posted in GD to raise awareness of the issue, as well as to try and find an effective way to deal with this strategy. While the exploit in itself doesn't seem that bad, it's actually very difficult to deal with as a player on the receiving end.

Nobody wants to tank a fully charged Vi Q-auto-E combo. And with the fact that she can constantly charge it up to full over and over again with virtually no cost without ever committing anything puts her opponent in a lose-lose situation. Literally any Vi who does this in top lane effectively turns the area around her into a "don't walk here or else you lose a trade" zone. It's dumb to try and get a single CS when the threat of a charged Q is ALWAYS there.

I have also already contacted a Rioter about this issue.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Asylum Lux

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I agree, this is a big problem, and it is most likely unintended looking at Varus.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerve

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I've uploaded a little snippet of the replay where I faced against a player using this. The point of this video is to highlight why this is such a problem, and how it makes Vi a serious issue in her current state. I tried to explain what a player would be experiencing when fighting against this.

http://www.twitch.tv/therealzerve/b/357824430


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BlueJusticee

Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerve View Post
I've uploaded a little snippet of the replay where I faced against a player using this. The point of this video is to highlight why this is such a problem, and how it makes Vi a serious issue in her current state. I tried to explain what a player would be experiencing when fighting against this.

http://www.twitch.tv/therealzerve/b/357824430
Not sayin' your wrong, you may infact be right, but this video doesnt seem honest.

Your saying its a serious problem but you start the video already losing your lane. Thats the serious problem cause whatever you do show may seem stronger than it actualy is.

In addition you wasted cooldowns before trading with her and then say, "as you can see i came out behind in that trade". Like thats evidence of anything. You have boots! She has 2 longswords, cause she *already* won her lane. don't fight. Your going to lose.

This error ( on your part ) led to you saying, "shes zoning me with her Q". (Note she didn't do that until she was already winning in trades, using it as a fear tactic)

Looking at it from a different perspective, that Q charging saved your life. Say she hadn't and you went in to cs, you would've gotten stomped. No question about it.

At the end you say you've lost another trade. Well, don't push your lane when your losing man thats all i can say, your lucky she doesnt have the mobility or sticking power like some of the other tops or you'd be dying for your mistakes.

Im sorry and i know that makes me sound like an ******* but imagine you over extended like that against Olaf or Riven in a losing lane, You'd be dead.

Show me a video of her winning her lane due to this bug, and not using it as a tool to pad her victory please. That would be honest. I cant see this "bug" helping her win a losing lane. The person wouldn't be scared and would want her to go all in.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Reality Bytez

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Just another QQ I am losing lane thread.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mhm916

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJusticee View Post
Not sayin' your wrong, you may infact be right, but this video doesnt seem honest.

Your saying its a serious problem but you start the video already losing your lane. Thats the serious problem cause whatever you do show may seem stronger than it actualy is.

In addition you wasted cooldowns before trading with her and then say, "as you can see i came out behind in that trade". Like thats evidence of anything. You have boots! She has 2 longswords, cause she *already* won her lane. don't fight. Your going to lose.

This error ( on your part ) led to you saying, "shes zoning me with her Q". (Note she didn't do that until she was already winning in trades, using it as a fear tactic)

Looking at it from a different perspective, that Q charging saved your life. Say she hadn't and you went in to cs, you would've gotten stomped. No question about it.

At the end you say you've lost another trade. Well, don't push your lane when your losing man thats all i can say, your lucky she doesnt have the mobility or sticking power like some of the other tops or you'd be dying for your mistakes.

Im sorry and i know that makes me sound like an ******* but imagine you over extended like that against Olaf or Riven in a losing lane, You'd be dead.

Show me a video of her winning her lane due to this bug, and not using it as a tool to pad her victory please. That would be honest. I cant see this "bug" helping her win a losing lane. The person wouldn't be scared and would want her to go all in.
Two things went on in that video.

1 - He's losing the trade
2 - BECAUSE he's losing the trade, he's scared to stand anywhere near Vi's charge up spell as he'll lose the trade again once he gets hit by it.

This allows Vi to effectively zone him out on Rengar as when he tries to last hit, Vi will charge up his spell and hit Rengar the moment he tries to land a last hit. If Rengar chooses not to last hit so he can avoid Vi's charge up spell, Vi just cancels the spell and gets her mana back and does it again until the two scenarios happen. 1 - Rengar gets hit by it and loses the trade as Vi expected, or not farm the minions that's near Vi which Vi also expects to happen.

What's so hard to understand about that? I can also come up with two scenarios for you here. 1 - You'll admit this is a problem because I just pointed it out exactly what the problem out directly. 2 - You play ignorant and try to come up with excuses as to why it's not an exploit while you know I'm right but refuse to say so(your answer may be affected by the way I replied).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerve

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJusticee View Post
snip.
You are right. The footage I used for this was one-sided in Vi's favor. However, I was 1 kill behind, with roughly equal CS. And it was 4 minutes into the game. I was hoping to record myself using this to win a top lane, but queue's were taking too long (at like 4am), and I couldn't be bothered.

But the point still exists that this "fear tactic" is absurdly strong and has no real counter-able options. If a Vi top gets ahead in ANY way, it's impossible to come back from. You could even argue that getting 1 kill, and zoning them with fear tactics is better than killing them two to three more times. Because if you fight to kill, there's a chance you can get counter-ganked by the jungler, or you take too much damage and have to recall etc etc.

Imagine this, if you will, a Fiddlesticks with his ultimate. You see him channel his ult, and then he cancels it. And channels it again. What can you do against it in this situation? The only option is to get the hell away from him. If you say, he ults you and you die. If you leave, he farms and effectively zones you from gold and exp. What can you do?

This is literally the same issue, just on a smaller scale. My argument is that there is no 'counter' for this play. Vi can charge Q's all day with ZERO cost. If she manages to come out ahead from ANYTHING, be it a jungler gank, an out play, creeps, lag, anything, the lane is effectively over and the opponent can't retaliate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BlueJusticee

Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhm916 View Post
Two things went on in that video.

1 - He's losing the trade
2 - BECAUSE he's losing the trade, he's scared to stand anywhere near Vi's charge up spell as he'll lose the trade again once he gets hit by it.

This allows Vi to effectively zone him out on Rengar as when he tries to last hit, Vi will charge up his spell and hit Rengar the moment he tries to land a last hit. If Rengar chooses not to last hit so he can avoid Vi's charge up spell, Vi just cancels the spell and gets her mana back and does it again until the two scenarios happen. 1 - Rengar gets hit by it and loses the trade as Vi expected, or not farm the minions that's near Vi which Vi also expects to happen.
1. Theres usualy a winner and a loser in trades no? Giving up FB and trading probobly puts you in the losing category no?
2. You would feel much safer standing next to a FB Darius when losing trades? (Any champ really lol just sayin)

You aren't right cause you don't understand the game. More specificly top lane. A first blood top, atleast for us regular folk, can decide the lane then and there. He already gave it up. So making a video where your chances of winning are already in the toilet and complaining about it isn't that honest. To me atleast, thats all im sayin.

As for him being zoned by her Q. Most champs would just stand inbetween Rengar and his minions at that point and zone him that way. If he gets anywheres close they will gap close and kill him. Vi's way to do this is more gimmicky but yields the same result. Rengar gets denied.

Maybe this is broken and maybe it isn't. I dunno how Riot does things. Using your logic, should we also conclude that gap closers are an issue? They dont offer rengar much counter play when hes getting utterly destroyed in lane and wouldn't only deny him cs but precious EXP! Cause they can keep him even farther away. (well Riven and Lee Sin just got nerfed LOL so maybe your right haha *fingers crossed for nidalee nerf*)

Anyway, time to put the grown up pants on. Should we point at Vi, and say her Q charging is broken, unfair, etc? Or should we let Rengar take some responsibility for his decisions and maybe next time he wont feed first blood and lose his lane? I don't mind posts like this, its good to bring things to the attention of Riot, just understand there might be a few more pieces to the puzzle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerve View Post
Snip. ( I like that )
The CS and stuff doesnt matter cause you didn't buy, and she did. 2 long swords > boots by a large margin, you shouldnt have been there.

My main is Riven, and i dont need some gimmicky trick, id just stand there and zone you with my body. Your jungler comes? I leave. You try to cs, i probobly kill you. Just sayin', other champs have easier ways of pressing their advantage than Vi.

With your current strategy, you are correct! It is infact impossible to come back if she gets a lead unless she makes a mistake.

Thats not to say theres nothing you can do though man. Theres a LOT you can do when your losing your lane. Don't push, freeze the wave near tower, farm under tower, just get xp not last hits when the wave does push out, buy defencively to prevent 2v1 tower dives. If your winning, you can press it to try to win more. Same with if your losing, you can withdrawl helping you lose less!

You need to have 2 modes when you lane dude. The i'm winning mode, and the i'm losing mode. At a quick glance of your inventories i saw you were losing but you were playing like you were winning (pushing your lane). You almost died for this, several times and would have if facing another champion like i said.

As for your fiddle comment. We could both make examples back and forth but it doesnt really add anything to the conversation sorry, im not touching that. Bad situations happen dude, you just gotta deal with it how you can. I gave you options above, you seem like a reasonable guy. I hope they help.

At the end of the day you only gotta convince Riot. Not me.