@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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Exocist

Senior Member

01-15-2013

I would redesign him without a black cleaver as his weapon...

Instant less op.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
1 of 12 Riot Posts

We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.


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Hovo

Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
dat beefy response *licks lipz*


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
2 of 12 Riot Posts

Might also make 1-9 stacks linear growth, 10 gets a big bonus.


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Exocist

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
I actually think 10 stacks would be too hard to build up in lane, considering malphite (my main solo top) has an 8 second cd on his q and therefore can actually back off for the full 5 seconds to allow hemorrhage to go down. Not forgetting that jax and fiora can also dodge getting hemorrhage stacks and out fight darius. All in all too much of a nerf, you would have to change the duration of hemorrhage to 10 seconds from 5.


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DT777

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
Please do this. He'd still be very powerful but he'd be much less binary top.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
3 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocist View Post
I actually think 10 stacks would be too hard to build up in lane, considering malphite (my main solo top) has an 8 second cd on his q and therefore can actually back off for the full 5 seconds to allow hemorrhage to go down. Not forgetting that jax and fiora can also dodge getting hemorrhage stacks and out fight darius. All in all too much of a nerf, you would have to change the duration of hemorrhage to 10 seconds from 5.
It would be. That's why you shouldn't get it all the time - this exact feedback (and our mistake in being too quick to react to it) results in the Darius on live, who has little play/counterplay.


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Engrish

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Remove the bleed stacks. (Bleed is ok, but stacking it 5 times is overpowered). No 5% extra movespeed in his passive. No passive armor pen in Apprehend. No true damage on his ult. (I don't mind the reset) Darius is the only one who can literally build full tank and still get a pentakill.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
4 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingp1ng View Post
No bleed stacks as his passive. No 5% extra movespeed in his passive. No passive armor pen in Apprehend. No true damage on his ult. (I don't mind the reset) Darius is the only one who can literally build full tank and still get a pentakill.
This doesn't address the issue, instead, its just taking power away, but not adding any gameplay decision-making to it.


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Suspitio

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
Wouldn't the armor pen on his ult just stack with his E that way?