Should the maximum camera zoom out be increased?

Yes! (Any additional reasoning?) 852 87.74%
No... (Why not?) 119 12.26%
Voters: 971. You may not vote on this poll

Camera zoom out is insufficient. Let me zoom out more? Reasoning included.

First Riot Post
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RainForrestGump

Member

01-09-2013

I think I know a way to improve on the issue through the use of key bindings (for lack of a better term)

My biggest issue with unlocked camera is that if I move my mouse to the edge of my monitor to slide my view, I cannot be using it to target a champion or creep. So why not allow us to move the screen in a different fashion?

I think the easiest way to do this is to allow us to spin the mouse wheel to move the camera north-south and tilt the mouse wheel to move the camera east-west? Or would this be considered unfair because not all wheels can tilt left & right?

And yes I know that the mouse wheel is currently used to zoom in and out, but that function doesn't seem like one that anyone really needs or uses.


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Sh00t3rman

Senior Member

01-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I don't think that the HUD is as big a problem as you believe it to be, and we have a HUD scale slider that lets you decrease the size as well. The camera angle and perspective have a much larger effect, which you can see if you look at how much of a skillshot indicator you can see above and below your champion. I would encourage people to read the extensive locked camera thread in this forum where there is an incredible amount of dialog about this issue.

Locked Camera Discussion Thread
Thanks for discussing this. You probably play a lot of normal games and end up on purple a lot- so are used to it. I used to be that way and didn't notice either until I made a bunch of friends who REALLY like coop and all complained of this. Try it yourself- play a bunch of co-op games where you are ALWAYS blue, and then playing a custom or normal where you are purple. Its a LOT easier to notice the difference that way. The HUD is a big obstacle for the purple side. Is there a something for the purple side that compensates?

Even if the zoom of the camera is not going to change, it still compounds the purple disadvantage. How is that balanced?


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CaterpillarCake

Recruiter

01-09-2013

The game already starts at max zoom-out, and no one EVER zooms in.
There is a zoom-in function, but why?
The max field of view allowed is what most be would consider tolerable at best. Meaning that if the game would be 1 or 2 ticks further in, it would be not only be un-enjoyable to play, but verging on unplayable.


A common argument i often see against allowing further zoom-out function for this game is that then everyone will play zoomed-out, never ever zoom-in thus causing them to:
1) Have a generally worse gaming experience, not realizing that being zoomed out so far makes control more difficult.
2) Not enjoy the visuals because they are too far zoomed out.

I am here to de-bunk not one but both of these arguments.


I am a long-time fan of the RTS genre and the custom games (like DOTA that birthed LOL).
One custom game in particular I enjoy a lot is called "The Star Strikers" for SC2.
This is a HIGHLY, HIGHLY micro intensive, team oriented game (I consider LOL mildly micro intensive).

Anyways, to my point, in this game, the player was allowed to zoom in and out decently far. I would say imagine LOL could zoom out about 6 ticks more, that was this game.
The results were interesting. At first it was as you expected.
The game's fanbase mostly played zoomed out all the way. However, quite quickly players began to adapt.
Better players would play zoomed quite far in to allow for better micro, and even better players would zoom in and out constantly throughout gameplay whenever the situation required it.
Soon, players began to learn that the best players zoomed in, and more and more players were playing zooming in and out.

A lot of people do still play the game zoomed out, but not because they are ignorant, it is because it is how they prefer to play the game. Maybe they are very casual, or maybe they are just lazy, but either way it is their choice.


As for the claustrophobia argument, that is just poor. "I want my players to make mistakes because it is hard for them to tell what is going on?"
Why not darken the screen by 80% so they have to squint and can experience nyctophobia as well?

That was a little long, but my point is this:
tdlr; Allow you players to zoom in and out as they please, it is currently not really an option for LOL and it should be. Don't treat your players like they are ignorant, they can figure out what works for them. Zoom-out will be a very welcome feature and no one will ever hate you or the game because of it.


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hotfire

Senior Member

01-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
That feeling of mild claustrophobia or paranoia is deliberate if you read Zileas's post that I linked earlier.
I too have agreed with a lot of the things the op mentioned, but your and zileas's reasonings on why not to increase zoom levels makes sense.

But, If we could shift discussion to another part of the OP's post that we've skipped, is the blue versus purple thing. Is it forseeable that purple side could have the option to rotate their camera 180*? yes yes, it would be awkward for the map to be sort of backwards, at first. Dragon and baron would be reversed in your directions. . . but everyone could see down lane!! Equal view potential!

Imagine. . . playing a ranged champion and being able to see your enemy on the other side of the lane, without having to cut yourself off the top!

note: I've been playing mobas since wc3 dotas, and I like to think I free scroll like a boss. It's just the fidgeting that bugs me, and how when I'm on purple side it's just too much in the margins.

I have a big monitor, and I think that helps me some, but it's the angles that bother me. Hell, I'd probably even take the option to have a layout with midlane running vertically up the screen and always looking forward.


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ZetsubouFallen

Senior Member

01-09-2013

Riot by rejecting this, supports hacking the game.

also the weirdo resolution thing.


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Mars Adept

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Senior Member

01-09-2013

Not sure if this was suggested before... but what if you could zoom out further than normal by clicking and holding down the mouse scroll wheel. When you release the mouse scroll wheel the camera snaps back to normal.

I'm not actually sure if clicking the mouse scroll button click has any function in the game currently but i know i don't use it for anything.


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boourns

UI Designer

01-10-2013
12 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotfire View Post
I too have agreed with a lot of the things the op mentioned, but your and zileas's reasonings on why not to increase zoom levels makes sense.

But, If we could shift discussion to another part of the OP's post that we've skipped, is the blue versus purple thing. Is it forseeable that purple side could have the option to rotate their camera 180*? yes yes, it would be awkward for the map to be sort of backwards, at first. Dragon and baron would be reversed in your directions. . . but everyone could see down lane!! Equal view potential!

Imagine. . . playing a ranged champion and being able to see your enemy on the other side of the lane, without having to cut yourself off the top!

note: I've been playing mobas since wc3 dotas, and I like to think I free scroll like a boss. It's just the fidgeting that bugs me, and how when I'm on purple side it's just too much in the margins.

I have a big monitor, and I think that helps me some, but it's the angles that bother me. Hell, I'd probably even take the option to have a layout with midlane running vertically up the screen and always looking forward.
you should read the thread the I linked to earlier


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boourns

UI Designer

01-10-2013
13 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaterpillarCake View Post
The game already starts at max zoom-out, and no one EVER zooms in.
There is a zoom-in function, but why?
The max field of view allowed is what most be would consider tolerable at best. Meaning that if the game would be 1 or 2 ticks further in, it would be not only be un-enjoyable to play, but verging on unplayable.


A common argument i often see against allowing further zoom-out function for this game is that then everyone will play zoomed-out, never ever zoom-in thus causing them to:
1) Have a generally worse gaming experience, not realizing that being zoomed out so far makes control more difficult.
2) Not enjoy the visuals because they are too far zoomed out.

I am here to de-bunk not one but both of these arguments.


I am a long-time fan of the RTS genre and the custom games (like DOTA that birthed LOL).
One custom game in particular I enjoy a lot is called "The Star Strikers" for SC2.
This is a HIGHLY, HIGHLY micro intensive, team oriented game (I consider LOL mildly micro intensive).

Anyways, to my point, in this game, the player was allowed to zoom in and out decently far. I would say imagine LOL could zoom out about 6 ticks more, that was this game.
The results were interesting. At first it was as you expected.
The game's fanbase mostly played zoomed out all the way. However, quite quickly players began to adapt.
Better players would play zoomed quite far in to allow for better micro, and even better players would zoom in and out constantly throughout gameplay whenever the situation required it.
Soon, players began to learn that the best players zoomed in, and more and more players were playing zooming in and out.

A lot of people do still play the game zoomed out, but not because they are ignorant, it is because it is how they prefer to play the game. Maybe they are very casual, or maybe they are just lazy, but either way it is their choice.


As for the claustrophobia argument, that is just poor. "I want my players to make mistakes because it is hard for them to tell what is going on?"
Why not darken the screen by 80% so they have to squint and can experience nyctophobia as well?

That was a little long, but my point is this:
tdlr; Allow you players to zoom in and out as they please, it is currently not really an option for LOL and it should be. Don't treat your players like they are ignorant, they can figure out what works for them. Zoom-out will be a very welcome feature and no one will ever hate you or the game because of it.
Unfortunately I am not really the best person to address your points, you should really try to catch the attention of Zileas if you feel like you can make a solid argument to change this. The zoom level was chosen long before my time by him and I'm sure he's considered many of the points you've laid out, maybe he could clarify his reasoning?

However, I will take a non-game-designer stab at this and say that we may view it as a positive that you can't see everything you want to and that *choosing* what to look at is a critical gameplay decision and we restrict zoom level to allow this gameplay. As a UX designer, I want to make the process of choosing what to view as transparent and efficient to the player as possible. I don't think we're doing as good a job as we could be and we haven't revisited this system since launch, so I, personally, would like to.


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MrJatt

Junior Member

01-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
However, I will take a non-game-designer stab at this and say that we may view it as a positive that you can't see everything you want to and that *choosing* what to look at is a critical gameplay decision and we restrict zoom level to allow this gameplay.
This would be fine, if it applied to both sides, but only purple has to work with a limited view, while blue has a much larger view.


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boourns

UI Designer

01-11-2013
14 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJatt View Post
This would be fine, if it applied to both sides, but only purple has to work with a limited view, while blue has a much larger view.
That's not true, you both have the same view of the world. *Unless you play locked camera*. In that case blue sees more of the interesting part of the world than purple during laning phase (i.e. the region of lane in front of you). Unfortunately the game is not optimized for locked camera.