What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

First Riot Post
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Alexandra Avdey

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalgolem View Post
Lately Riot has been sticking most of their new champions in the jungle (Vi, Elise, Zed) but none of them are really made for the jungle. I think the last champion that was actually made to go into the jungle and not a lane was Skarner; and since him, every "jungler" Riot has released has been simply tossed into top or mid lane because they are more useful there (Rengar, Diana, Kha'zix). Is Riot just missing the mark on trying to make a viable jungler or are they simply trying to give junglers more options?
Riot has basically conceded that their understanding of the jungle isn't refined enough to make the distinction during the design phase, so they just design whatever, and if it just happens to be okay in the jungle, then it's okay in the jungle.


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Corporal Cupcake

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Potentially. It's unclear what should be done to Darius. He's balanced, has clear strengths and weaknesses, and is much less matchup dependent than the average forum post would have you believe. Even if we remedied some of the specific complaints about him now, any bruiser that does not lean heavily on raw statistical bonuses to be successful will often generate a lot of frustration from their opponents. Raw stats tend to play out almost unnoticeably over time whereas abilities manifest their power in dramatically noticeable moments. Take Jarvan's Demacian Standard -- it's primary power is in the armor/AS boost it gives, but a good number of players don't even notice it exists.

I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.
Maybe increase his mana costs so he actually has to think about using his abilities? Aside from his ult (which even that could have a higher one) his mana costs are ridiculously low. As of right now whenever I play Darius I use Q whenever it's up, effectively farming and harassing at the same time at no cost to me.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallen Kozuki View Post
Nautilus cannot do anything except jungle, and he even sucks at jungling.
Lmao clearly you never seen anyone that knows how to use him. He is so good in the jungle, how can you even think hes bad


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallen Kozuki View Post
Nautilus cannot do anything except jungle, and he even sucks at jungling.
I'd like to disagree. His jungle clear is strong and gets stronger, his ganks are incredibly powerful, and he transitions into a powerful tank late-game with team-wide disruption, among other things.

Also, I've seen AP mid Nautilus played consistently well throughout roughly 50 or so games--a friend of mine, Commando Garen, used it to carry himself to a last-minute silver in ranked. He's quite effective against popular melee mids (like Kat, for example), and can be devastating with mid-level exp and farm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS143f11a3b260f8 View Post
A word about Darius' bleed.

Make his ult consume the stacks. Seriously, nothing is more ****ing annoying than being killed by a DoT that's primarily there to empower an ability, rather than the ability it empowers.
How about "let's keep Darius's bleed as a deterrent for engaging him in prolonged duels"? Chances are, if you let Darius stick to you long enough (after getting into range with his abysmal mobility) to get 5 stacks and almost kill you with his ult, you stuck around Darius too long.

It also hardly makes sense thematically (and thus would deal a blow to readability)--cutting somebody deosn't make them stop bleeding, it makes them bleed even more. Encouraging him to save his ult for the end of the fight (as opposed to blowing it along with his other abilities--like most other ults) is enough, punishing him for miscalculating his ult's damage slightly is a bit unnecessary. Just bleed out, dude. Don't call it a grave, this is the future you chose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purplosion View Post
Maybe increase his mana costs so he actually has to think about using his abilities? Aside from his ult (which even that could have a higher one) his mana costs are ridiculously low. As of right now whenever I play Darius I use Q whenever it's up, effectively farming and harassing at the same time at no cost to me.
Well, the point of Darius is being a lane bully. He needs that low-cooldown, low-cost (and very short-ranged) harass to actually be a threat and push his opponent out of lane, since he doesn't have any sustain or mobility. His harass pushes his lane, too, so if you can bait him into using it in the middle of minions, you leave him with two options: back off to avoid ganks, letting you freefarm and freeze your lane at tower, or stick around at your tower and guarantee a gank-kill because he has no escapes.


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Hidden Sanity

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Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallen Kozuki View Post
Nautilus cannot do anything except jungle, and he even sucks at jungling.
He's a very solid support, mind you, a lot of what he does is better done by blitzcrank, but blitz is often banned. so you can be a walking bundle of tanky CC with a hook just fine in bot lane and it does work very well... You are slightly more dependent on getting some gold as a support, but the S3 passive gold changes kinda fix this.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
15 of 20 Riot Posts

Itemsguy -- You basically just describe the benefits of the current dominant set of lane assignments. I would say that what you have left unaccounted for is the possibility that the idea of lane assignments is itself sub-optimal. It's possible that in a year or two the dominant way to play the game will not involve placing specific people in specific lanes for the entire first half of the game, but rather moving them around in response to changing conditions or game time -- e.g., we already see some pro teams running two top until the game time at which dragon can feasibly be taken and then swapping them bot.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Potentially. It's unclear what should be done to Darius. He's balanced, has clear strengths and weaknesses, and is much less matchup dependent than the average forum post would have you believe. Even if we remedied some of the specific complaints about him now, any bruiser that does not lean heavily on raw statistical bonuses to be successful will often generate a lot of frustration from their opponents. Raw stats tend to play out almost unnoticeably over time whereas abilities manifest their power in dramatically noticeable moments. Take Jarvan's Demacian Standard -- it's primary power is in the armor/AS boost it gives, but a good number of players don't even notice it exists.

I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.

You're right, I don't play darius much but when I do I absolutely love it. Changing the bleed stacks to physical would definitely have some negative implications for those playing him. Morello talked about reducing frustration of playing against him and I just thought this might be the train of thought you guys follow.


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Roneld3444

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Good question. My understanding is that our tagging system is designed to guide newer players. Champions receive a "Jungler" tag so that if you want to try them, but have no idea what they do, you can get an idea of where they work, and what runes/masteries to use, by looking at the tag. Additionally, if a newer player wants to jungle, they can look for champions with the Jungler tag and enter the game confident that they won't die to wolves.

So while AD Malzahar may be a viable jungler, we would never give him that tag, because it takes a fairly sophisticated level 30 player to pull it off.

As to Malphite specifically, I think he would be a fine champion for a newer player to pick up. That is possibly just an oversight.
The tagging system is broken, especially for junglers. Commonly used junglers such as Amumu, Lee Sin, Udyr, Nautilus, Udyr, and Nocturne (among others), are not tagged appropriately.


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HoneyBadgerNZ

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The issue of AP versus AD is about whether you will focus on magic or physical damage, not what space within the game you intend to occupy.

As to Riven being a champion that is only viable top lane and no where else, I would just say that I strongly disagree with these sort of design goals. Creating champions for specific reasons leads to a lot of stuff we later regret -- in Riven's case, her inordinately high base HP regen and her incredibly low ultimate cooldown.

In Darius' case, I regret including an attack speed slow on Crippling Strike and making Hemorhage damage type magic. I did these things as last minute reactions to concerns from our live designers about his viability (at the time, Draven would just 1v1 him even in the rare case that Darius could get to Draven and Darius was considered hard countered by cloth+5pot starts). I should have just designed him in a way that was logical and let our player base figure out where and how to best use him.
Major Props fro this post CertainlyT. Good on you for being honest.

Tell me, are there Warwick changes coming? I'm tired of him being next to useless except for ulting on some-one.


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Demotion 101

Senior Member

12-30-2012

So uhh where was Ziggs intended to play when he was made?