What Makes a Jungler a Jungler to Riot?

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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
6 of 20 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by GlavTech View Post
I would say Akali, but she's a viable midlane, so I won't.

Garen is the first champion that comes to mind as a top that can't viably jungle.

Renekton is another.
The question isn't what top lane champion cannot jungle it is what top lane champion can only go top. Garen is pretty good in duo kill lanes, for example. I'm pretty sure Renekton can do some nasty things in midlane. He has great wave clear, can roam from some interesting angles, let's the jungler take multiple blues and supports ganks very well.

As to the jungle specifically, Garen's recent mini re-work made it an explicit goal to give him jungle viability. Renekton, I hear you on, he's not incapable of jungling, but the fury system is inherently difficult to make work when ganking.

Regardless, I don't think it was ever a goal of these champions' designers to exclude them from other game roles. In fact, when Garen was made, there wasn't even a "top lane" as we now think of it.


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AlexDnD2

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
This is a very good point. I'd contend that on-hit Lulu is still viable outside of the LAN setting. Malady really helps her.

It's unfortunate that these two champions have kits which make balancing them as solo laners a real challenge. However, when AP Lulu and Soraka can lane effectively, they pretty much ruin the experience of whoever they are fighting.
If that's a problem.... explain Eve and Teemo.


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Bacur

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Two teams ran Nocturne mid this month at the OGN winter championships.
asians does not count


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

12-30-2012
7 of 20 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by tuskyraider View Post
link pl0x.
Video
Summary

Video
Summary


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The question isn't what top lane champion cannot jungle it is what top lane champion can only go top. Garen is pretty good in duo kill lanes, for example. I'm pretty sure Renekton can do some nasty things in midlane. He has great wave clear, can roam from some interesting angles, let's the jungler take multiple blues and supports ganks very well.

As to the jungle specifically, Garen's recent mini re-work made it an explicit goal to give him jungle viability. Renekton, I hear you on, he's not incapable of jungling, but the fury system is inherently difficult to make work when ganking.

Regardless, I don't think it was ever a goal of these champions' designers to exclude them from other game roles. In fact, when Garen was made, there wasn't even a "top lane" as we now think of it.
Renekton loses to any form of ranged harass, even with his E. I don't see how putting him mid would be a good idea. He destroys top laners because most of them cannot respond to his combo of E in, W+Q, E out.


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Metalgolem

Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CynicalGiant View Post
Renekton loses to any form of ranged harass, even with his E. I don't see how putting him mid would be a good idea. He destroys top laners because most of them cannot respond to his combo of E in, W+Q, E out.
I think Renekton would only be good as a counter pick to some mid champions like Eve


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Submohr

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12-30-2012

I'd have to do some searching to dig it up, but with regards to

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I am not sure why a designer would even accept that as a goal. Champions that can function in multiple game roles are healthier champions, since more people can access them and explore their abilities in a variety of contexts.
- I'm pretty sure Xypherous has argued on the forums before that having multiple viable roles for a champion isn't ideal for reasons including it can confuse your own team if they have certain expectations of what you'll do (team expects you to be ad kog/trist, you go ap, is the example). I don't quite remember the exact wording, it was quite a while ago.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Submohr View Post
I'd have to do some searching to dig it up, but with regards to



- I'm pretty sure Xypherous has argued on the forums before that having multiple viable roles for a champion isn't ideal for reasons including it can confuse your own team if they have certain expectations of what you'll do (team expects you to be ad kog/trist, you go ap, is the example). I don't quite remember the exact wording, it was quite a while ago.
I remember this as well.

Xypherous made Riven specifically for the top lane, which is why she was so strong for such a long time because she had to be for successful top lane performance.


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Bacur

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Senior Member

12-30-2012

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
This was a huge homegrown piece of trick they did there.

Just a one time thing and they were able to pull it out because ad casters and assassins are broken in s3 in general not because Noc is exceptionally powerful.

Nocturne is not viable mid except when played by certain asian guy against a certain champion played. At best it is practice, at worse it is disbalance.

Staying absolutely on topic: Why u ignore jungle gold starvation topics like the problem does not exist?


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Saigo Getsuga

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Utility / clearing time/ ganking.