@ricklessabandon Why u math so good?

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JeDo Nimble

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Senior Member

12-29-2012

But, some questions I'd like to ask.

How do you think Master Yi is doing with the new itemization and masteries? As AD or AP?

Do you think Black Cleaver is too powerful and too convenient of a pick? I mean, it's nice to have a bruiser item, but it gives a bruiser nearly everything they need. Bruiser itemization is staler that it was before because it's based around a single item now. It would be like if Rabadon's added some free spell vamp and CDR.

Did Leviathan really need to get deleted? Double Stack Garen was one of the funnest (and rather viable) builds to play.


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ricklessabandon

qa analyst

12-29-2012
6 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
It used to be the way it is now a long time ago and then it was changed to be flat before % based pen. Why did you decide to revert that change now?
iirc, xypherous has made a few posts on the subject.

i might be paraphrasing him incorrectly, but i believe that it was essentially the first step in creating a much healthier environment for all archetypes. that way fighters, assassins, and mages could all co-exist with carries without having to have ridiculous things built into their kits to compensate for damage calculations that were set up around the carry's power curve.

i suggest trying to search for his posts for see if you can flag him down to post in a relevant thread if you're curious about the matter.


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Ralik098

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
iirc, xypherous has made a few posts on the subject.

i might be paraphrasing him incorrectly, but i believe that it was essentially the first step in creating a much healthier environment for all archetypes. that way fighters, assassins, and mages could all co-exist with carries without having to have ridiculous things built into their kits to compensate for damage calculations that were set up around the carry's power curve.

i suggest trying to search for his posts for see if you can flag him down to post in a relevant thread if you're curious about the matter.
Ok, thanks!


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Yndyr

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Considering the person with the Caitlyn avatar is supposedly really good at math, it's amazing that Cait's passive tooltip still says it's "Every 8th shot" actives Headshot.

Or does 8 = 6 in Runeterra?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
eh, i'm not convinced that rushing liandry's is a great idea—i'd rather put the 1415g towards other things until its best case of 1.67% current health every 0.5 seconds is better than my champion's natural scaling (that is often more reliable) and other actives/passives i want in my build.

i still think the passive good, but i haven't seen a situation in which liandry's rush was the best call.
Well one case is certainly Teemo-- the item is one reason for his sudden spike in power.

Don't just consider one instance of the effect being applied: Liandry's adds sustained damage scaling off your opponents' health.

(Edit for clarity: So basically, as your opponents get stronger, so do you proportionally.
It's also a constant presence in addition to the AP the item provides: net cost of the passive is about 446.25 gold.
And will trigger off any spell damage, no matter how minor-- relevant for mana-restrained poking.)

That steady burn-down style of effect is a very big reason Brand kills people effectively. Over the course of the engagement, the damage adds up significantly.

There's also the psychological factor of opponents miscalculating how much damage you can do to them, which additional DoTs have a tendency to do.

As well, it's not as if you're spending 1415 exclusively for that passive.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
ridiculous things built into their kits to compensate for damage calculations that were set up around the carry's power curve.
A principle issue currently is that there is no ability for melee carries to competitively exist in League.

Everyone else needs to be built around carries having superior range.

And then those carries also have access to their own dashes and the summoner spell Flash for free.

That just straight up warps the game around mobility-- the simple status of all competitive carries being ranged.

Edit: Such things do as well apply significantly to raw damage calculations: considering the ability of a set of champions to apply damage (when, how, what circumstances, that sort of thing).


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ForrestLump

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
summary of feelings:
-magic penetration is still extremely strong.
-flat penetration is too easy to get for how strong it is, and doesn't require you to give much (if anything) up.
-liandry's is really good as a late-game upgrade and plays into the 'not giving anything up' bit above.
-void staff is probably too strong right now… it might not be, that's my gut feeling.

it's almost 5 in the morning, so i'm not going to go all 'crazy details and math' right now, but basically things got pretty awesome for mages that care about dealing magic damage.

best core damage build (for 'skill gatling') is something like:
dfg, haunting guise, void staff, sorc shoes
7880g for +195 ability power, +30 | +32% magic penetration, +15% cdr, +200 health, +45 movement speed, and the dfg active.

this varies a little bit based on a few factors, but that's basically what you want if your job is to make people dead. there isn't really a lot of room for substitutions unless you're willing to pay for it one way or another. if you really don't need the dfg active, then you can sub it out for morellonomicon (plus a start on another ap item) or deathcap, but then you'd be giving up the dfg active.

the only reasons you wouldn't see void staff on someone (that i can think of offhand) would be because they're snowballing really hard early game and opt for more flat penetration first, or they can't afford to prioritize damage over something else. otherwise they should be getting it sometime before late-game (assuming the enemy team is building responsibly). again, this is all generalized and is assuming the mage's core responsibility on the team is dealing magic damage.
Great post! Thank you, but I do have one question.

Does +30 | +32% magic penetration mean +30 AND +32% or +30 OR +30% magic penetration?

| is an operator that means OR in some languages. I am not talking about C/C++ (even though it is similar ||).


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ricklessabandon

qa analyst

12-29-2012
7 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeena View Post
But, some questions I'd like to ask.

How do you think Master Yi is doing with the new itemization and masteries? As AD or AP?

Do you think Black Cleaver is too powerful and too convenient of a pick? I mean, it's nice to have a bruiser item, but it gives a bruiser nearly everything they need. Bruiser itemization is staler that it was before because it's based around a single item now. It would be like if Rabadon's added some free spell vamp and CDR.

Did Leviathan really need to get deleted? Double Stack Garen was one of the funnest (and rather viable) builds to play.
these are all questions that the live design team could speak to with a lot more data/context to back it up, but i can give you my personal views on them.

-master yi built as a melee carry probably got the most significant buffs (both direct and indirect), but i still think that melee carries are just as awkward fitting into a team comp as they were before. so i'd say he's doing better but i don't think he'll be more common in solo queue.

-i think black cleaver might be a little too 'heavy-handed' of a solution, but i don't really hold that against it. i think to some degree there's going to be at least one item that feels core to an archetype, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. an entire build being stale is pretty lame though, like every ad carry champion in season 2 building the same 5 items every game.

-yeah, it's probably for the best that leviathan is gone. the item's passive would have been more attractive now, which is dangerous since the item is pretty terrible or 'meh' with 0-19 stacks and amazing at 20 stacks.


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Susskind

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RazyUltim8 View Post
I can't believe it, how clueless can you reds can be?

You do NOT penetrate more MR than in s2. Mages are immensely weaker for many reasons:

-Early game they do less damage thanks to sorc shoes and mpen runes nerfs. MR runes unnerfed (And the increased cost of MR does nothing, it's effing early game).

-Deathcap nerfed.

-The rise of the AD assassins.

-With sorc shoes alone you do less damage than in s2, you NEED void staff to get the same values like in s2. And you also need haunting guise to actually penetrate more than in s2. Three different pen items to finally do more damage (But you only have 100 ap lol!). Don't forget that void penetrates 35% and mastery 8% (40% together, down from 46%)

-Haunting guise is situational (not every champ needs 20 AP for 1450 gold, some champs actually have more advantageous ratios) and its upgrade is so bad it's unreal. Extremely situational, terrible on burst champs, and it's even subpar on DPS champs like vlad or rumble.
Whoever upvoted Razy is a moron. Lol.


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TrueRocknRolla

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Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
best core damage build (for 'skill gatling') is something like:
dfg, haunting guise, void staff, sorc shoes
7880g for +195 ability power, +30 | +32% magic penetration, +15% cdr, +200 health, +45 movement speed, and the dfg active.

this varies a little bit based on a few factors, but that's basically what you want if your job is to make people dead. there isn't really a lot of room for substitutions unless you're willing to pay for it one way or another. if you really don't need the dfg active, then you can sub it out for morellonomicon (plus a start on another ap item) or deathcap, but then you'd be giving up the dfg active.

the only reasons you wouldn't see void staff on someone (that i can think of offhand) would be because they're snowballing really hard early game and opt for more flat penetration first, or they can't afford to prioritize damage over something else. otherwise they should be getting it sometime before late-game (assuming the enemy team is building responsibly). again, this is all generalized and is assuming the mage's core responsibility on the team is dealing magic damage.
would you say thats the ideal build for kat atm